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Old 09-20-2011, 08:30 AM
 
6 posts, read 10,072 times
Reputation: 15

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chi_tino View Post
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant against the free market!

The sinkhole premium increases are thanks to a state-run insurance company that was giving away a dollar's worth of premiums for 16 cents.

If you actually look at the numbers, you would know that the sinkhole premiums were priced so low that the state was paying out claims at a rate of about 6 times the amount that they were receiving:

"Citizens incurred $245 million in sinkhole losses while earning just $32 million in premium."

Citizens sinkhole rate increase slashed to 32.8% | TBO.com

That is not a free market -- that is a government entity selling products at below cost to PREVENT a free market. At due to the protesting masses, they will continue to sell policies at a significant discount to the real cost.

Without Citizens Insurance, a lot of people could not insure their homes and therefore could not get mortgages to purchase homes. Between hurricanes, flooding, and sinkholes, most property insurers choose to simply not do business in Florida at all.
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Old 09-20-2011, 09:02 AM
 
1,106 posts, read 2,040,677 times
Reputation: 954
"Between hurricanes, flooding, and sinkholes, most property insurers choose to simply not do business in Florida at all."

No, they choose not to do business because the State of Florida can force them to sell their policies below their actuarial cost if they want to do business in Florida. Why on earth would they want to do that?

"Without Citizens Insurance, a lot of people could not insure their homes and therefore could not get mortgages to purchase homes."

The problem is that the State of Florida has artificially lowered insurance prices (either through Citizens or forcing private companies to accept lower premiums) for so long that people assumed that it would last forever. That assumption helped fuel the artificial run-up in the prices of homes, because the state was providing a subsidy in the operating costs of home ownership. That is one of the reasons why waterfront property in the past 20 years has skyrocketed. At one point before the fall, prices were up 10-fold in a 15-year period. Why? They didn't have to pay the true cost of insuring them.

You do know that Citizens sells those policies at a discount to the actuarial cost, right? That means that the State of Florida takes money from people that are not customers of Citizens and transfers that money to Citizens customers.

I am surprised that non-Citizens insurance customers are not in a bigger uproar than the Citizens customers, because in the event of a big loss, THEY have to pay to make Citizens whole.

Just don't try to call it a free market like dg4gm, because it is anything but. [note: I am a customer of both Citizens and FEMA, and am enjoying huge premium subsidies from the rest of you. That doesn't make it right, though.]

Last edited by chi_tino; 09-20-2011 at 09:25 AM..
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Old 09-22-2011, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Saint Petersburg, FL
1,881 posts, read 3,254,296 times
Reputation: 16531
I go to Fort Desoto all the time and I will pay the fee in order to continue doing that. ($75/year, if I remember correctly?) I do wish, however, that residents had to pay a bit less than non-residents.

ETA: Does anyone know when the fee goes into effect?
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Old 09-22-2011, 07:36 AM
 
6 posts, read 10,072 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by chi_tino View Post
"Between hurricanes, flooding, and sinkholes, most property insurers choose to simply not do business in Florida at all."

No, they choose not to do business because the State of Florida can force them to sell their policies below their actuarial cost if they want to do business in Florida. Why on earth would they want to do that?

"Without Citizens Insurance, a lot of people could not insure their homes and therefore could not get mortgages to purchase homes."

The problem is that the State of Florida has artificially lowered insurance prices (either through Citizens or forcing private companies to accept lower premiums) for so long that people assumed that it would last forever. That assumption helped fuel the artificial run-up in the prices of homes, because the state was providing a subsidy in the operating costs of home ownership. That is one of the reasons why waterfront property in the past 20 years has skyrocketed. At one point before the fall, prices were up 10-fold in a 15-year period. Why? They didn't have to pay the true cost of insuring them.

You do know that Citizens sells those policies at a discount to the actuarial cost, right? That means that the State of Florida takes money from people that are not customers of Citizens and transfers that money to Citizens customers.

I am surprised that non-Citizens insurance customers are not in a bigger uproar than the Citizens customers, because in the event of a big loss, THEY have to pay to make Citizens whole.

Just don't try to call it a free market like dg4gm, because it is anything but. [note: I am a customer of both Citizens and FEMA, and am enjoying huge premium subsidies from the rest of you. That doesn't make it right, though.]
Yes, it's common knowledge that Citizens' premiums are below market value. That is why it exists. Absent Citizens, the properties would be either uninsurable or insurable only by surplus lines carriers at premiums so high so as to price out the vast majority of people who own such properties.

The utility of such a scheme, however, is more complex than you make it out to be. The ability to insure an otherwise nigh-uninsurable property prompts greater development of that property, which in turn raises that property's value and increases the property tax receipts from that property. It also attracts/keeps citizens and businesses to those areas.

I'm sure I could find many areas in which I think the state could trim its budget, but Citizens is an extremely useful program which benefits the state as a whole.
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Old 09-22-2011, 04:21 PM
 
Location: St. Pete
149 posts, read 423,906 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyff67 View Post
I love going to Ft Desoto. I take my dog to the park there pretty regularly. The 35 cent charge always seemed pretty low to me, but they won't see me there any more for $5. I would have been more than willing to continue going on a regular basis, had they raised the entrance fee to $1 or $2, but NO, they have to be greedy.

The tourists will continue to pay, but the locals will stop going almost all together. They'll actually loose money in the end.
The locals will pay the $75/year if they go often. I agree the fee increase was large, but people will still pay it. Obviously the new tourist income will be a huge boost in revenue, and the regulars will still pay, so it should translate into a huge win for the park.

I got tore up by stable flies last time I was there so hopefully they use the money for pest control.
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Old 09-26-2011, 07:05 PM
 
479 posts, read 428,953 times
Reputation: 658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angler View Post
Did you get your TRIM notice? My taxes in St. Pete went down , again. I bet yours did as well.

I'll pay $5 to visit a crown jewel of outdoor parks/beach.

And don't blow the red light and you'll have nothing to worry about regarding red light cameras.

I don't have sinkhole coverage in the burg, so I can't comment on that.

The only way your taxes went down compared to last year is if your property value decreased. Taxes went up. I bet mine didn't go down, though they should have as no house in my area is selling for what mine is appraised at. It is a sea of foreclosures.
I think you need to check your trim notice to see how much the value of your appraised property went down from last year (2010).
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Old 09-29-2011, 12:16 AM
 
145 posts, read 315,290 times
Reputation: 82
If these premiums are so high then there must be a ton of homes destroyed by wind and or swallowed up by sinkholes. If these numbers aren't there then high premiums aren't justified.
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:11 PM
 
1,106 posts, read 2,040,677 times
Reputation: 954
Quote:
Originally Posted by HughMcs View Post
If these premiums are so high then there must be a ton of homes destroyed by wind and or swallowed up by sinkholes. If these numbers aren't there then high premiums aren't justified.
I'm not sure why you don't understand this statement, so I'll repeat it for you:

"Citizens incurred $245 million in sinkhole losses while earning just $32 million in premium."
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Old 09-29-2011, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ottawa Valley & Dunedin FL
1,409 posts, read 2,457,944 times
Reputation: 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyff67 View Post
I love going to Ft Desoto. I take my dog to the park there pretty regularly. The 35 cent charge always seemed pretty low to me, but they won't see me there any more for $5. I would have been more than willing to continue going on a regular basis, had they raised the entrance fee to $1 or $2, but NO, they have to be greedy.

The tourists will continue to pay, but the locals will stop going almost all together. They'll actually loose money in the end.
The least they could do is have a yearly rate or something like that, for frequent visitors.
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Old 09-29-2011, 07:58 PM
 
Location: St. Pete
149 posts, read 423,906 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wwanderer View Post
The least they could do is have a yearly rate or something like that, for frequent visitors.
Ugh, they do?
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