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One thing you are taking out of this account: the weather. You can't compare San Francisco Weather with Florida/anywhere. We are finally starting to see some relief, (all though I personally did not think this summer was as bad as the one last year), but I mean that as in how many professionals do you know who work in an AC'd offices that will be willing to change clothes several times while at work? We do have some months here when it is hot, people sweat, and so I really can't picture people walking around all that much considering the heat/downpours. So whatever you put down there will become seasonal all things considered. California has fantastic weather year round, that is why is such a heavily populated state...but we have thunderstorms, really hot/humid weather patterns that for an outdoor coffee shop can be financially devastating considering foot traffic. The sidewalks down town are small too, and cannot offer a lot of room for these shops unless they only have 2, 3 tables, and then when you sit outside you end up inhaling gas fumes from all the cars passing by. Think about it. Sidewalks in Paris or SF or NYC are very wide by direct comparison, to accommodate not only a large number of tables, but to also keep ppl somewhat away from the street traffic, and allow others to still use the sidewalk to walk passed a venue like that. Again those "logistics"! If you don't get a lot of foot traffic in these venues, they'll die like Channeside did. People who move here like a nice place to live, but they also like to have nice areas surrounding that nice place to live. You're keep saying they need to bring more stores, what kind of stores do you see downtown? directed at what demographic? Music stores (those that used to sell CDs, LPs etc) are out of the question considering iTunes for example, so unless you create a new concept, who will visit them? do people take lunch to go shopping every day at the same store? art galleries? for what demographic? remember downtown is filled with people "working", not visiting for leisure purposes. You have people come to conventions who are bused around, or who spend their entire day AT the convention. By 7, 8 PM they are done for the day. If they're done.
You need to take all those damn dealerships out of Florida Ave and start bringing those miles up to par with downtown, by adding PT, and chic venues based on demographics living there, and their interests. You can also have a bunch of young professionals who could care less about art, or sports...what do you with them? There has to be some mass surveying given around here to get a good idea as to what people moving/living here are looking for before demolishing, or building anything new. Especially after the fiasco that is Channelside.
This title: "If Tampa Bay Wants Young Professionals, We Need Livable Communities" only means someone will be finally bulldozing over Nebraska/Florida ave and build nice clean town homes, single family homes, condo buildings etc. for those working downtown. Otherwise...we already have several livable communities and one of them is Westchase.
In theory it sounds great, in practice you have to match the audience with the amenities to have a successful mix! You have to have people interested in this type of stuff, and that can also afford this type of stuff, and not just pass by it and go: "ohh that's beautiful, but at $100 its too expensive! I can find it at Walmart for $20 bucks"
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Originally Posted by tampagator89
An interesting blog entry that probably belongs in this thread.
Enough with the lack of high skilled workers. Skilled for what?
1. We have that, look at how many college and universities are in Florida, & Tampa alone.
2. All these graduates need jobs; we have employers galore here, what we don't have is RESPECT for peoples degree's to offer them jobs paying them what they're worth. Every employer out there is looking to undercut an employee at any given time. Large or small.
We need a mentality change, not more large companies around. I would like to see a statistic as to how many graduates from ALL these schools leave the state for work. I seriously doubt that every single graduate from USF leaves for California for work. The mentality here is to get highly trained graduates to work for $8 an hour. That is the goal here. Change that first. Also, lets not forget that all these UTAH cities "thriving" are ONLY thriving because of Californians who moved their business there, but still wanted to be close to home. How many of these businesses "attracting" all these educated people are native to Utah? or Minneapolis?
THIS:
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Washington, DC and Charlotte converted underutilized neighborhoods into thriving communities centered on transit stations.
Translates precisely into what I told you earlier. All these suburbs that were created in the last 20/30 years should become self sufficient. If you continue to have people living in Land O lakes and working in Sarasota, that is not going to create a "livable" community. Take Lutz for example; is filled with people, built a local transit connecting it to Carrollwood, Northdale, Odessa etc. so we don't have to use our cars non stop for trivial trips, and don't worry about connecting it to downtown because not everyone here works downtown, and those who do are executives who will never give up their Jaguars to ride a bus! Face it, we have a serious class problem here, we need to solve that first, and then worry about what new businesses should be open downtown, and for whom.
I was only half kidding though....because too many move here and end up on welfare sucking the state out of money. Money that could be forwarded to businesses instead/start up capital etc., and not just for minorities but for everyone. SBA for example is only helping minority women with grants, start up loans etc etc. White Caucasians are not even talked with as if they were all trust fund babies. Plus, have you not seen those threads of ppl moving without jobs giving us a bad reputation...and while I agree that it is harder to get a job being out of state, many do, so its not impossible after all, yet a whole lot end up on welfare from doing that. How is it the state's Fault that someone didn't do their due diligence? why should FL pay you because you don't want to mow your snow anymore?
Screen them as in protecting our state from keep having to offer welfare to those who are lazy.
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Originally Posted by tinytrump
HELLO ?? this is AMERICA??? land of the free- what is up with screening people into a city?? sorry town?? and whose doing the screening? OMG... LORD please help me out of this place!
Algia, most of the "available smart young people" here leave immediately after college. I know this because I am one of them, and I would have left if the field I'm in wasn't so strapped for jobs at the current moment. My first choice destination was NYC, followed by Boston or Denver, but I do not have quite the drive in me to fly up there and go door-to-door with companies and pay for rent with a service job in the meantime. Therefore, I am here by default.
I graduated high school here class of '07 at King High IB program. About 50/120 kids went with me to UF. All of them, including me, graduated. Know how many of them are back in Tampa working? Two people: me and another guy (who is currently living in downtown, actually!) Where did the rest of them go, then? Besides the several that are in med school or graduate school, one of my friends is in Chicago, a few others in NYC, couple in Philly, one in SF, one in LA, on in Denver...several in North Carolina...I run into kids from Tampa often that are here currently but are planning to leave as soon as economically possible or as soon as they graduate...several are attracted to California and New York.
This is just like the attendance arguments I get into involving the Rays...this area is one-dimensional. Do we have some smart people here willing to work? Of course, but Denver has MORE...NYC has MORE...SF has MORE. Not to mention there are just poor job opportunities and low pay here to begin with...huge turn off for not only young people but middle-aged workers too.
Fact of the matter is this area has never been popular for young people, even when Tampa was booming. It's been a place for tourists, seniors, and families, and as such Tampa's economy has relied solely on these demographics. It is no coincidence that Tampa was affected most by the recession. Why are there no jobs here? This area was not made for tech jobs, it was made for retirement homes and Busch Gardens and lounging on the beach, and as you say "sitting in your home and getting fat". It would be smart for Tampa to invest in fostering tech and engineering jobs. The "seperate communities" idea that you and another poster threw out there is not a bad idea, but my question is, why should downtown not be fostered as one of these "communities"? Building living space there and bringing nightlife to the area diversifies the city very nicely. Otherwise you are talking about a European sort of idea where residents live in an old-town or suburb area and the CBD is used solely for work purposes and virtually nothing else (as "La Defense" works in Paris), which would be challenging to implement in the USA.
Not to mention neglecting downtown and fostering ONLY suburban communities is a bad idea, because again, it decentralizes businesses. That is why, again, you see collections of skyscrapers as a focal business point outside of old city boundaries in European cities, rather than setting up buildings in an equidistant fashion encircling the old city core.
I think you are trying to rethink the wheel here. I agree with some of what you are saying, in regards to improving areas on Fl and Neb avenues, developing suburban communities in select suburbs and instituting a mentality change in the area's current businesses, but we cannot just leave downtown barren and expect to get away with it economically...unless, that is, we want another housing and tourism crash in ten years that cripples our economy. Rather than me post any other links, just Google "why are downtowns important" and any of those articles can carry my point further.
At any rate, we will see how things are two years or so from now. There are housing projects already starting to go up all over Tampa, and if I end up here long-term, you can bet that I'll be one of the ones renting there.
California has fantastic weather year round, that is why is such a heavily populated state...but we have thunderstorms, really hot/humid weather patterns that for an outdoor coffee shop can be financially devastating considering foot traffic. The sidewalks down town are small too, and cannot offer a lot of room for these shops unless they only have 2, 3 tables, and then when you sit outside you end up inhaling gas fumes from all the cars passing by. Think about it. Sidewalks in Paris or SF or NYC are very wide by direct comparison, to accommodate not only a large number of tables, but to also keep ppl somewhat away from the street traffic, and allow others to still use the sidewalk to walk passed a venue like that. Again those "logistics"! If you don't get a lot of foot traffic in these venues, they'll die like Channeside did. People who move here like a nice place to live, but they also like to have nice areas surrounding that nice place to live. You're keep saying they need to bring more stores, what kind of stores do you see downtown? directed at what demographic? Music stores (those that used to sell CDs, LPs etc) are out of the question considering iTunes for example, so unless you create a new concept, who will visit them? do people take lunch to go shopping every day at the same store? art galleries? for what demographic? remember downtown is filled with people "working", not visiting for leisure purposes.
Also, regarding this...Miami has a more competent downtown area than we do and yet they are in the same climate as we are. San Antonio and Houston do too, and although they don't have as much of the rain, they certainly have heat.
I hear rave reviews about Curtis Hixon Park as a place to spend a day, evening, or lunch break downtown even in the summer, so I don't know how much of a problem the weather really is here.
The implementation of good restaurants/shops will not be difficult. There are many already in the area that close by, as you said, 7 or 8 because there is no business then, because right now there are two towers there and a couple of mid-risers in Channelside. As more people move down there hours will increase for these places, and new areas in these mixed-use buildings will become popular, as the new bars/restaurants below Skypoint have. I believe areas near the Riverwalk could be developed into nice bars/restaurants on the river. These types of areas near the water on Harbor Island are rather popular. But before this can happen to a larger degree, the people have to move there and the jobs have to be available. You are right in saying people won't visit to eat there, but they will once more people live there and create less of a "barren, spooky environment".
If any of what you're saying was possible then how come its been so many years of none of that has been accomplished? Think about it, how many mayors does Tampa need before refreshing this downtown? I don't think the people with power in changing the downtown the way you and I might see fit are having much interest in doing so.
Miami is a stone throw from the beach, my brother lives in Coral Gables...jump over the bridge and you're on the beach, jump over the other bridge and you're in Key Biscayne! Can't beat that. AND the majority of buildings downtown are high end condo buildings. There were 16 skyscrapers built between 2007 and 2009, I counted them personally. BUT......Miami is Miami...lots to do, lots of arts, lots of everything...kind of like St Pete and Sarasota put together times 100000. Plus, as much as I don't like that you can't find an English speaking job down there anymore, the reason it is so much more livelier is because it IS populated by various kinds of LATINS. Latins are lively kind of people, they like to have fun, talk to other people (still), and that's why Miami has a different vibe. I would move there in a second if my kids were not in school...
This downtown has an eerie feeling about it...it feels isolated from everything else in South Tampa, and the kinds of shops in existence now are not very attractive. I rarely even want to go photograph it, I too am more inclined to go to St Pete more often. The one way streets are very annoying, if you missed a turn you have to go all the way around, there are several abandoned buildings as you go back towards 275...and it has a dead end by the port side. It doesn't feel "welcoming", it feels corporate cold. Its the best I can describe it. I don't know how you can change that by bringing more ppl to live there because after 5pm when most of the people working there go home, its a ghost town...including the people living there, they shoot up in their condo, and admire the view, which I know its fantastic (I photographed a few of those condos), or they go to Ybor, or St Pete...its missing the "main street" feeling...here's a good example: In Fort Lauderdale, Las Olas Blvd is smack downtown Fort Lauderdale...and two feet from Riverwalk that has shops restaurants, you should check it out some times, it used to be my favorite hang out spot before kids! LOL still is if we go alone...ahahahahahah...its all there, and it makes sense. Tampa's downtown is missing that "Las Olas" vibe. Even Orlando has that small Main Street filled with little shops and restaurants. Somehow Tampa is missing that entirely. And frankly I don't know where you'd put it to make sense and attract people. It is a matter of also getting in and out of downtown where on one end yo have to trek all of Kennedy to go back to St Pete, or Clearwater, or Lutz on Veterans...look at the map...the people living in St Pete, and pretty much everyone around the sprawl will only come once or twice...this is why its development has been stagnant.
I think your assessment of downtown is spot on...it does feel corporate cold. I am attracted to living around there less because of location and more because of "views" and "modern buildings"...otherwise I would just try to get a place near SOHO.
The thing is we need some actual good city planning for down there...there is a lot of empty room so it's not like the area isn't salvageable. You are right in saying there are a lot of problems. The roadways are complicated and in need of redesign. But they have been paying a lot more attention to downtown recently than in years past (Encore project, Channelside condos/apartments going up, investors trying to get additional skyscraper residences built near the Straz Center, Curtis Hixon Park, Riverwalk, more restaurants and bars moving in). Remember, just before the economy went in the tanker in '07, you were seeing a real estate boom downtown and lots of projects planned...as investors went bankrupt things were obviously curbed and development was halted. I think plenty of people could want to come to downtown, but as you said, there are too many "creepy" patches and nothing down there is cohesive. The area by the Park and Children's hospital is nice, but if you want to go from there to Jackson's on Harbor Island, you have to walk through the CBD, which is creepy at night.
That's why I think they should bring a lot of the restaurants and entertainment towards the Riverwalk...the Riverwalk when completed will provide an uninterrupted, safe, lighted, attractive way to stroll from the Straz Center area all the way down to Harbor Island and Channelside without having to mess around walking through the CBD. This is the area we should focus foot traffic towards. And some of that foot traffic doesn't necessarily have to come from visitors as much as it does from residents and people who hang around there after work for a bit.
I also think that some development should happen across from the river too. Areas near the Laurel St. bridge can be developed as well as just south of Kennedy near Parker St. Develop that sand lot between Whiting and Brorein, right on the Riverwalk. Build an attractive pedestrian bridge to these areas. Our waterfront is our greatest asset and can and should be improved drastically beyond just plopping a Riverwalk down there.
And, of course, the other thing is the potential baseball stadium, which would bring at least 20K people down there 81 days out of the year. It would also force a heavy roadway reconstruction to take place, which would provide more jobs. It would also give the streetcar some more business, since Ybor could act as a nice "hub" in which to park your vehicle, and patrons would need to take the streetcar to get to Channelside.
But anyways, we will really see within the next 5 years or so whether people actually do want to move there. The developments are going up right now and if people don't respond to them as the economy improves, then maybe it's time to give up on downtown and focus our money elsewhere. I hope that's not the case because in this day and age I have yet to see a healthy city with an unhealthy downtown area.
I've been talking about this downtown and its issues since 2007. That's 5 years, and nothing happened still. The only issue I have is with wasting money on a lost cause.
They should continue to cater to businesses, restore/rebuild the abandoned buildings and "finish off" the skyline, and use it to attract businesses by offering fantastic office spaces, modern, technologically up to par etc. Offer "entertainment" services to those who work there, but don't plop it in the hopes that they'll come...if they wanted to come, they'd be here by now.
Instead, they should "observe" where the people roam the most, and develop those areas, because convenience always wins.
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Originally Posted by tampagator89
I think your assessment of downtown is spot on...it does feel corporate cold. I am attracted to living around there less because of location and more because of "views" and "modern buildings"...otherwise I would just try to get a place near SOHO.
The thing is we need some actual good city planning for down there...there is a lot of empty room so it's not like the area isn't salvageable. You are right in saying there are a lot of problems. The roadways are complicated and in need of redesign. But they have been paying a lot more attention to downtown recently than in years past (Encore project, Channelside condos/apartments going up, investors trying to get additional skyscraper residences built near the Straz Center, Curtis Hixon Park, Riverwalk, more restaurants and bars moving in). Remember, just before the economy went in the tanker in '07, you were seeing a real estate boom downtown and lots of projects planned...as investors went bankrupt things were obviously curbed and development was halted. I think plenty of people could want to come to downtown, but as you said, there are too many "creepy" patches and nothing down there is cohesive. The area by the Park and Children's hospital is nice, but if you want to go from there to Jackson's on Harbor Island, you have to walk through the CBD, which is creepy at night.
That's why I think they should bring a lot of the restaurants and entertainment towards the Riverwalk...the Riverwalk when completed will provide an uninterrupted, safe, lighted, attractive way to stroll from the Straz Center area all the way down to Harbor Island and Channelside without having to mess around walking through the CBD. This is the area we should focus foot traffic towards. And some of that foot traffic doesn't necessarily have to come from visitors as much as it does from residents and people who hang around there after work for a bit.
I also think that some development should happen across from the river too. Areas near the Laurel St. bridge can be developed as well as just south of Kennedy near Parker St. Develop that sand lot between Whiting and Brorein, right on the Riverwalk. Build an attractive pedestrian bridge to these areas. Our waterfront is our greatest asset and can and should be improved drastically beyond just plopping a Riverwalk down there.
And, of course, the other thing is the potential baseball stadium, which would bring at least 20K people down there 81 days out of the year. It would also force a heavy roadway reconstruction to take place, which would provide more jobs. It would also give the streetcar some more business, since Ybor could act as a nice "hub" in which to park your vehicle, and patrons would need to take the streetcar to get to Channelside.
But anyways, we will really see within the next 5 years or so whether people actually do want to move there. The developments are going up right now and if people don't respond to them as the economy improves, then maybe it's time to give up on downtown and focus our money elsewhere. I hope that's not the case because in this day and age I have yet to see a healthy city with an unhealthy downtown area.
algia, most of the "available smart young people" here leave immediately after college. I know this because i am one of them, and i would have left if the field i'm in wasn't so strapped for jobs at the current moment. My first choice destination was nyc, followed by boston or denver, but i do not have quite the drive in me to fly up there and go door-to-door with companies and pay for rent with a service job in the meantime. Therefore, i am here by default.
I graduated high school here class of '07 at king high ib program. About 50/120 kids went with me to uf. All of them, including me, graduated. Know how many of them are back in tampa working? Two people: Me and another guy (who is currently living in downtown, actually!) where did the rest of them go, then? Besides the several that are in med school or graduate school, one of my friends is in chicago, a few others in nyc, couple in philly, one in sf, one in la, on in denver...several in north carolina...i run into kids from tampa often that are here currently but are planning to leave as soon as economically possible or as soon as they graduate...several are attracted to california and new york.
This is just like the attendance arguments i get into involving the rays...this area is one-dimensional. Do we have some smart people here willing to work? Of course, but denver has more...nyc has more...sf has more. Not to mention there are just poor job opportunities and low pay here to begin with...huge turn off for not only young people but middle-aged workers too.
Fact of the matter is this area has never been popular for young people, even when tampa was booming. It's been a place for tourists, seniors, and families, and as such tampa's economy has relied solely on these demographics. It is no coincidence that tampa was affected most by the recession. Why are there no jobs here? This area was not made for tech jobs, it was made for retirement homes and busch gardens and lounging on the beach, and as you say "sitting in your home and getting fat". It would be smart for tampa to invest in fostering tech and engineering jobs. The "seperate communities" idea that you and another poster threw out there is not a bad idea, but my question is, why should downtown not be fostered as one of these "communities"? Building living space there and bringing nightlife to the area diversifies the city very nicely. Otherwise you are talking about a european sort of idea where residents live in an old-town or suburb area and the cbd is used solely for work purposes and virtually nothing else (as "la defense" works in paris), which would be challenging to implement in the usa.
Not to mention neglecting downtown and fostering only suburban communities is a bad idea, because again, it decentralizes businesses. That is why, again, you see collections of skyscrapers as a focal business point outside of old city boundaries in european cities, rather than setting up buildings in an equidistant fashion encircling the old city core.
I think you are trying to rethink the wheel here. I agree with some of what you are saying, in regards to improving areas on fl and neb avenues, developing suburban communities in select suburbs and instituting a mentality change in the area's current businesses, but we cannot just leave downtown barren and expect to get away with it economically...unless, that is, we want another housing and tourism crash in ten years that cripples our economy. Rather than me post any other links, just google "why are downtowns important" and any of those articles can carry my point further.
At any rate, we will see how things are two years or so from now. There are housing projects already starting to go up all over tampa, and if i end up here long-term, you can bet that i'll be one of the ones renting there.
I think Tampa is going in the right direction. You have to remember, Tampa has historically been a cigar factory town, retiree and vacation town. I think it is now just beginning to start the effort on attracting businesses. We'll get there, it'll take time.
In the mean time, I am enjoying the fact that Tampa is going to be a good place to raise a family for the next 10 - 15 years at least. Which is great because around that time my kids will be moving out and I'll be renting out my current house and living in a Condo off of Gulf Blvd.
I think Tampa is going in the right direction. You have to remember, Tampa has historically been a cigar factory town, retiree and vacation town. I think it is now just beginning to start the effort on attracting businesses. We'll get there, it'll take time.
In the mean time, I am enjoying the fact that Tampa is going to be a good place to raise a family for the next 10 - 15 years at least. Which is great because around that time my kids will be moving out and I'll be renting out my current house and living in a Condo off of Gulf Blvd.
Kash, I love that you have only been here a short time, but you totally get what Tampa is and always has been about! I am always agreeing with your posts, having been born and raised in Tampa (as was my father, grandparents came from Spain in 1800s)
Tampa is most definitely moving in the right direction. A lot of people posting their ideas here are forgetting that we are only now barely coming out of one of the worst recessions we have seen in decades. Tampa had a WHOLE lot more things on the drawing boards before the crash. It's easy to talk about stuff, not so easy to implement, and it takes money - a WHOLE lot of money to get the things done some of you are talking about.
I am always saying things don't happen overnight, as much as many of you would like instant gratification - I mean who doesn't? But as I have said many times before, Buckhorn is a good mayor and has a great vision for Tampa. My husband has worked there for 15 years now and has seen numerous positive changes. I expect that to continue, but again, it won't be overnight.
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