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Actually light rail can go up Dale Mabry from Kennedy blvd all the way to Connerton in Land O Lakes!
It could also run down Hillsborough Avenue...and all other major hwy's, like SR-54, US-19 etc. ALL the streets meeting up to these larger arteries would have buses, electric buses that is to keep pollution down, bringing people from the subdivision entrances to the rail station! BELIEVE ME...It is very doable...what is not that doable is finding people to implement it, and keep it clear from homeless and robbers. If they come timed every 10 minutes, they would be very successful. If they made stops by all shopping plaza's and have over pass connections over these shopping plaza it would work extremely well.
But again, people get stuck on "taxes" etc...and it will never get done.
algia, I tend to agree with you most of the time, but here everything you mentioned is not doable due to high ROW cost.
I was on the Board of one of the entities that originally funded the streetcar (this entity's contribution was burned through quickly), and attended city meetings on it. It was a disaster from the start and continues to be a disaster, but the whole concept is seemingly immune to criticism.
It shouldn't be immune to criticism. It also shouldn't condemn an unrelated project. And while your two numbered paragraphs are insightful, I'm not sure how they relate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chi_tino
Like almost all transit systems in non-high-density cities, it is an expensive folly and an increase to traffic congestion. The light rail fantasy would be this foolish x100, and the "high"-speed system between Florida cities would be this foolish x1,000.
How would this project increase traffic congestion? The two prospective rail lines to be built first would largely occupy unused space along 275. This isn't a trolley lane on Channelside drive.
I agree with two of your points though-- Tampa not being a high density city yet, and this project being expensive. I don't get why that makes it a sure-fire folly. It's logical to explore the opportunity now, given Tampa's growth rates, its increasing density, the traffic that will follow and the increasing cost of gasoline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chi_tino
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
algia, I tend to agree with you most of the time, but here everything you mentioned is not doable due to high ROW cost.
Well, this is why i won't get done. However it makes the most sense to have LR run through all these major boulevards, because these boulevards connect suburbs with the business centers, and shopping. It makes perfect sense. It is a straight shot north/south or east/west and it would be great for all the people living in these suburbs and commuting to dt or anywhere on the way to dt. I never said this would be cheap to achieve. This is a HUGE undertaking regardless of where it is installed. The only difference here is who will benefit from it: a small group of people, or the entire area!
Obviously this is a little to late to even talk about considering the rampant building making Tampa the sprawl that it is.
I agree with two of your points though-- Tampa not being a high density city yet, and this project being expensive. I don't get why that makes it a sure-fire folly. It's logical to explore the opportunity now, given Tampa's growth rates, its increasing density, the traffic that will follow and the increasing cost of gasoline.
Tampa's "growth" has to be very carefully assessed. If the retiree population grows, that is not a source of income that can be relied on to support the infrastructure of a LR system. Tampa is not growing in quality...and the quantity of ppl living here does not guarantee LR popularity. Remember, ppl who move here, move here to escape taxes in their own state! These ppl will always fight projects that involve taxes, which is why we don't ALREADY HAVE Light Rail system in place.
It will create and block traffic because ppl do have to get off of it...This will give you a new flow of PEDESTRIANS which Tampa Bay is already UNFRIENDLY TOWARDS! This screams more casualties when ppl will assume that the pedestrians will wait next to the train while all traffic clears! That is NOT how this works in real life. The stops are usually attached to stop lights for cars, and other vehicles...this will SLOW DOWN traffic considerably. Light Rail is nothing more than a glorified trolley...don't think of this like some high speed train, because THAT is not what Light Rail is.
Bottom line is this: the people who have been planning this adventure need to live in Paris, Bucharest, Prague, London, Japan for at least 2 years, and OBSERVE how this works from the construction, to maintenance, to pedestrian behavior, to car rider behavior etc. The PT system here is flawed big time which is why its NOT WORKING now, and it will never work properly. The sprawl can be tackled, it won't be cheap, but if tackled the wrong way, then it WILL be a huge and expensive mistake, and nobody will find use in it.
Hmm-- ignoring the substance of the commentary and opting for reactionary tactics... so unlike you.
I'll repeat what I said earlier, a few times, that the plan is to build a core rail line within the city then build off of it to connect with extra-urban residential areas.
How many people who live around downtown work downtown is the question?
I doubt anyone north/east of DT actually works DT!
The lines need to start where the boulevards start...downtown is a DISASTER mess with tiny streets that will NOT FIT rails...one way streets not large enough to accommodate such project. Could you imagine a light rail going down Ashley drive?
Tampa's "growth" has to be very carefully assessed. If the retiree population grows, that is not a source of income that can be relied on to support the infrastructure of a LR system. Tampa is not growing in quality...and the quantity of ppl living here does not guarantee LR popularity. Remember, ppl who move here, move here to escape taxes in their own state! These ppl will always fight projects that involve taxes, which is why we don't ALREADY HAVE Light Rail system in place.
It will create and block traffic because ppl do have to get off of it...This will give you a new flow of PEDESTRIANS which Tampa Bay is already UNFRIENDLY TOWARDS! This screams more casualties when ppl will assume that the pedestrians will wait next to the train while all traffic clears! That is NOT how this works in real life. The stops are usually attached to stop lights for cars, and other vehicles...this will SLOW DOWN traffic considerably. Light Rail is nothing more than a glorified trolley...don't think of this like some high speed train, because THAT is not what Light Rail is.
Usually when the only thing someone brings to a discussion is subjective declarative statements and the caps lock key, they're just there for the sake of argument.
I was on the Board of one of the entities that originally funded the streetcar (this entity's contribution was burned through quickly), and attended city meetings on it. It was a disaster from the start and continues to be a disaster, but the whole concept is seemingly immune to criticism.
1. This shows that even when a project is a financial failure (and by every account it is), IT WILL NEVER DIE. Ever. No one likes to call a public project a failure, so it will continue to support public monies being flushed down the toilet in perpetuity. Buckhorn (and his successor, and the mayor after that) will continue to "work on fixing it" by wasting more and more money on it.
Other cities are in the same bind with their light rail systems. They spend hundreds of millions or billions on it, then find out that the ongoing revenues will only pay a fraction of the investment and the ongoing cost. Then what? More debt, higher taxes and selective shutdowns of newly-built stations/lines to stem the bleeding.
2. You may have not lived downtown pre-trolley, but Channelside Drive goes from two lanes past the TBT Forum down to one lane through Channelside before expanding again north of Channelside. This is because the trolley forced the street to become one lane in each direction. This causes delays through this area every day during rush hour and before and after Forum events. They replaced lanes of traffic with an alternative that carries less than 1% of the capacity of the lost roadway and creates a crash-prone mess at the Beneficial/Channelside intersection with lanes appearing and disappearing as you make your way through it.
Like almost all transit systems in non-high-density cities, it is an expensive folly and an increase to traffic congestion. The light rail fantasy would be this foolish x100, and the "high"-speed system between Florida cities would be this foolish x1,000.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Being on the board of one the the funding entities has nothing to do with anything, bringing that in at an attempt to make a point about the financial aspects of the streetcar is pointless. Everyone I think can agree that the streetcar system from a financial standpoint has been a disaster, no one is disputing that. However, it has been a disaster because of the historical inept planning and implementation done while getting the streetcar off the ground.
Also the streetcar has not been immune to criticism, I know for a fact that is has been lambasted in the news for some time now and has clearly brought to light the financial mess that the system is in. So clearly it has not been immune as you say.
The streetcar system will "never die" because of one major reason. All the government funding that went into it initially would have to be given back, I don't care to look it up, but it's as significant amount of money to the point where it is a better financial decision to continue to run the streetcar over paying the subsidies back.
As for traffic, there is no way mass transit increase traffic, whether that be LRT or Streetcar. You cited one very specific example and even that example is a wash. Reducing a 1/4 mile stretch of Channelside Dr. to 1 lane in each direction did no significantly hamper traffic. I have never seen traffic backed up there, it moves steadily even after events. And the crash prone mess would have been there with or without the streetcar lane. Also to say the mass transit would increase traffic elsewhere is absolutely absurd, future LRT and HSR is using medians of highways so please tell me how that would increase or otherwise hamper traffic. Even if rail took off 5% of cars from the roadways, for roadways that carry 150,000 cars a day, thats 7,500 cars off the roads.
I am curios your viewpoint on highways systems, you mention taxes for rail and investments that don't pay off for mass transit, but what about highways? Highways are paid with our taxes, highways don't make money, highways cost more to maintain and you can only continue to expand highways to a certain point, a point in which we are reaching very soon.
Rail is not a fantasy, currently as of right now it is, but we will see rail in the next 5 years.
Usually when the only thing someone brings to a discussion is subjective declarative statements and the caps lock key, they're just there for the sake of argument.
"Formatting" has been used in typing for a very long time! I am not arguing, I was clearly explaining why this is not working here because I have 1st hand experience having lived in cities who know how to provide comprehensive public transportation to their citizens! I use caps to empasize, and not yell just so u know.
You all who never lived anywhere with real PT available, you can keep your fantasies, in reality it takes a lot more than "tax dollars" to make this work succesfully.
How many people who live around downtown work downtown is the question?
I doubt anyone north/east of DT actually works DT!
The lines need to start where the boulevards start...downtown is a DISASTER mess with tiny streets that will NOT FIT rails...one way streets not large enough to accommodate such project. Could you imagine a light rail going down Ashley drive?
A ton of people North and East of downtown, work downtown? New Tampa, Brandon, Carrollwood, the list goes on and on. Not everyone who works in downtown lives in South Tampa.
I also want to say that any future rail will not be using BLVDs. The only BLVD that would ever be used is Bruce B Downs. You will not see anything on Dale Mabry; one because it is extremely low density and almost zero residents not to mention there is no place to acquire ROW. You will also never see anything on Downtown street, besides the streetcar extension which would run up Franklin to Palm. The Downtown transit hub would be in the Northern part on land that has already been cleared and would be right next to the Marion Transit Center.
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