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So... I'm the same person who originally posted this. Not sure why my name is different, I must have accidentally created a second account...
Anyway, I've been looking in Tampa... there's two things I've identified:
1 - The schools in Tampa are probably the worst I've seen in the country. I mean, they are so horrible that the vast majority of them are like 1s and 2s. I don't even know what you have to do (or not do) for these schools to be like this. I'm sorry... I've spent the greater part of my adult life living in Florida. I own a home in Cooper City (Fort Lauderdale) and the lowest school is a 7... and the elementary and middle are a 10 and a 9. Where I live right now in Texas, all the schools within a 25 mile radius are all higher than an 8... and that's at least a dozen middle schools and even more elementary schools.
2 - I took a visit out there, and drove by the entrance of MacDill AFB. I decided to get gas there, and when I tried to enter the men's room at the gas station, there was a lady shooting up heroine, and she quickly slammed the door as I walked in. So... I used the women's room. When I walked outside, there was a low-budget motel on the other side of the street and they were taking a dead body out in a body bag and putting it into a coroner van.
I realize that we're in a pandemic and home prices are insanely over-priced there because people are moving in droves to Florida because it's one of the few states that has a good solid economy and isn't destroying itself. But damn... I really have no options. I basically have to spend ~$750k to be in a good school district and be within a 30 minute drive of the fort. Otherwise, my only option is $450k house that's a 50 minute drive from work, EACH WAY.
I know most of the people working at the base who are civilians are low grade civilians (GS-12 and below), I'm just not sure I understand how they're able to afford this?
I'm a life long NYer but have a friend who is recently retired NYPD and moved his family to Lutz. Loves it. Not sure of his financial situation but trust me no retired cop is killing it money wise. Seems good enough for him and his kids.
So, I ended up buying in Fishhawk. It's a nice neighborhood, and I like the fact that all the homes have vintage styling such as Kansas Shirtwaist, Craftsman, Cape Cod, and Arts & Crafts... even a couple of tacky Queen Victorians. The Johnathan Weekly (or whatever his name is) did it right. The lots are small, but they've somehow made the community charmful with the homes being so close without it being tacky. In the end, the shuttle to MacDill made it worthwhile for me... I can walk to the stop.
I paid more than I wanted, and had to buy the house sight unseen... literally did a walk-through using Facetime with the real estate agent because I couldn't get out there. Just a really bad time to be buying a home, but in the end I got exactly what I wanted, just had to pay the inflated prices.
The market is hotter than Miami (where I'm from) because the homes are generally more affordable than South Florida... which makes them a bit more desirable for people from other states who are looking to move down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MortonR
Great feedback, and quite true.
As a former administrative employee of the school district who had Fishhawk schools under my management, I found this to be very much the case - there's truly a caste system in Fishhawk.
I was at Newsome HS one day when I overheard some students talking in the media center about "those kids from the hood." Thinking that there were possibly what were known as "satellite" students that are bussed in from outside the area, I asked one of my co-workers that was based at Newsome about this.
He just chuckled and said that they were referring to kids who lived in the original (oldest) part of Fishhawk, which was considered the "ghetto".
Brother. First world problems, for sure.
RM
I saw this, and had to comment. While the schools in Fishhawk were one of the primary reasons we moved there, I will say that the bar is set low. Some of the A-rated schools in South Florida, and the schools I've seen in other states, these schools here are "acceptable." I don't want to be a jerk, but we spend nearly 10x what other countries do for education that's sub-par. Don't misunderstand me... other countries can take a hike. But we can do better. I'll have to pay more out of pocket for these activities for my daughter (orchestra, language, and sports). It looks like the high school has these things, but not the middle school to any real extent.
I think it's funny that people in Tampa think one half of their neighborhood is ghetto. My wife, who's from Miami, thinks all of Tampa is ghetto... and I try to tell her that Tampa is awesome, because it's filled with freedom-loving Americans... then again, so is Miami. Never the less, I'm back in Florida... and you can't beat that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by EngGirl
The same exact story with Seven Oaks in Wesley Chapel! I mean elementary kids were talking about "those kids from the hood" and even some teachers said it out loud. I couldn't believe it when I heard it myself! Caste system indeed! Some people feel entitled for no good reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjairo191
That is what happens when you grow up in the suburbs and are sheltered from the real world. I hope these kids are exposed to other cultures and social economic statues. And yes, there are some that are cleaner and superior. London for example.
I wonder what these kids would think if they drove through West Palm, or the "fingers" of Los Olas, or perhaps down Biscayne Blvd in Miami? Would they still feel entitled? Then they should take a trip to Egypt and see people living in huts made of stacked mud with basically no clothes on because they can't afford it.
I'm a life long NYer but have a friend who is recently retired NYPD and moved his family to Lutz. Loves it. Not sure of his financial situation but trust me no retired cop is killing it money wise. Seems good enough for him and his kids.
The average pension for a retired NYPD cop is about $75k/year + excellent medical benefits. Not big bucks per se, but if your friend managed his money well he can probably afford a pretty comfortable life in Lutz.
Thought I would respond, since I've now effectively been here for about a year. Again, I'm the original poster, but no idea what happened to that account or why my account name is different. I must have accidentally created two accounts (I apologize for this).
Fishhawk has been really good. The home values have persisted since I moved here and have not gone down over the past two months. I essentially gained nearly 200k in equity. Never the less, a bit more about the homes.
The home is a David Weekly home, all the homes are modeled after classic American architecture. There are Federal style, Cape, Craftsman, Shirtwaist, French Colonial, even Tudor style. Almost all of the homes have some sort of large porch on the front (mine has a porch across the entire front of the home). Many homes have a detached garage, which means the visuals of the home focus on the classic lines of the homes, rather than... "Hey... look at my warehouse, the door is on the right." Where there is a huge garage in the front that stands proud of the rest of the house... no offense to anyone that has that, but it's something that absolutely infuriates me... and believe me, I am a car guy. I had 9 cars at one point, but I really appreciate the vintage and classic American lines of these homes.
Almost all the homes are well-outfitted. For example, there are outlets everywhere... beyond the NERC standard. My home came pre-wired for a 5.1 channel stereo system. I just had to install speakers. There's chair rail, crown molding, everything. The homes are fantastic.
Because they are ~2007+, they are also well insulated, and up to modern Florida standards. I won't say they are built to Miami-Dade standards (front door still opens inwards, the windows are non-impact windows), but it literally has everything else. I have that 1/8th" bulkhead hurricane bar across both my garage doors, tie-down straps, solid concrete walls, etc.
Very efficient homes, and the entire neighborhood at night feels like you're either walking through Georgetown or the French Quarter. It's fantastic.
Now the bad...
Leaving Fishhawk, and the local support network of stores and restaurants... you have either Fishhawk Road or Lithia Pine-Crest. Both of these roads are single-lane roads, and make traffic absolutely unbearable during rush-hour traffic.
All the intersections are designed to be 2 and 3 lane roads... such that, like on Lithia Pinecrest for example... as you drive towards Brandon, the two main intersections (forget the names), they open up into two lanes, plus a turn lane, right before the intersection... and then immediately merge back into a single lane.
It's obvious to me that they intend to eventually widen these lanes into two lanes, but I don't know at which point it actually will. If anyone knows, please let me know.
I see in 10 years, greatly improved transit, and more consumer options. They're expanding a lot of roads in and around Brandon, but Fishhawk is still largely isolated. This makes it frustrating because... almost anywhere you want to go outside of your immediate 5-mile radius... it takes a minimum of about 25-30 minutes of driving.
Thought I would respond, since I've now effectively been here for about a year. Again, I'm the original poster, but no idea what happened to that account or why my account name is different. I must have accidentally created two accounts (I apologize for this).
Fishhawk has been really good. The home values have persisted since I moved here and have not gone down over the past two months. I essentially gained nearly 200k in equity. Never the less, a bit more about the homes.
The home is a David Weekly home, all the homes are modeled after classic American architecture. There are Federal style, Cape, Craftsman, Shirtwaist, French Colonial, even Tudor style. Almost all of the homes have some sort of large porch on the front (mine has a porch across the entire front of the home). Many homes have a detached garage, which means the visuals of the home focus on the classic lines of the homes, rather than... "Hey... look at my warehouse, the door is on the right." Where there is a huge garage in the front that stands proud of the rest of the house... no offense to anyone that has that, but it's something that absolutely infuriates me... and believe me, I am a car guy. I had 9 cars at one point, but I really appreciate the vintage and classic American lines of these homes.
Almost all the homes are well-outfitted. For example, there are outlets everywhere... beyond the NERC standard. My home came pre-wired for a 5.1 channel stereo system. I just had to install speakers. There's chair rail, crown molding, everything. The homes are fantastic.
Because they are ~2007+, they are also well insulated, and up to modern Florida standards. I won't say they are built to Miami-Dade standards (front door still opens inwards, the windows are non-impact windows), but it literally has everything else. I have that 1/8th" bulkhead hurricane bar across both my garage doors, tie-down straps, solid concrete walls, etc.
Very efficient homes, and the entire neighborhood at night feels like you're either walking through Georgetown or the French Quarter. It's fantastic.
Now the bad...
Leaving Fishhawk, and the local support network of stores and restaurants... you have either Fishhawk Road or Lithia Pine-Crest. Both of these roads are single-lane roads, and make traffic absolutely unbearable during rush-hour traffic.
All the intersections are designed to be 2 and 3 lane roads... such that, like on Lithia Pinecrest for example... as you drive towards Brandon, the two main intersections (forget the names), they open up into two lanes, plus a turn lane, right before the intersection... and then immediately merge back into a single lane.
It's obvious to me that they intend to eventually widen these lanes into two lanes, but I don't know at which point it actually will. If anyone knows, please let me know.
I see in 10 years, greatly improved transit, and more consumer options. They're expanding a lot of roads in and around Brandon, but Fishhawk is still largely isolated. This makes it frustrating because... almost anywhere you want to go outside of your immediate 5-mile radius... it takes a minimum of about 25-30 minutes of driving.
All of Tampa Bay really has inferior infrastructure (roads) to handle the growth that is already here and the growth that is coming. No earthly idea how they will be able to plan for all the gridlock that is coming. I cannot even imagine sitting in that Fishhawk traffic. I'd rather move to North Dakota before I do that. It must be brutal trying to go get some Chinese takeout or pick up dry cleaning in that. By the time they widen that road, DeSantis's 8-year presidential term will be ancient history and Tom Brady will have great-great-grandchildren. I have had a home in South Tampa for 15 years and the consumer options and roads have gotten worse, not better. However I never deal with Fishhawk type traffic because my home is in South Tampa and what I see when I'm in town is minimal urban traffic and there's many many options for getting from A to B.
All these people that are moving here (like you), I guess they will be content to just sit in their homes 24/7. Because driving anywhere is going to be impossible. Not that there's that much to do here to drive to anyway.
As for the schools, yep, you downgraded. People never believe me when I say that A rated schools here are C elsewhere.
All of Tampa Bay really has inferior infrastructure (roads) to handle the growth that is already here and the growth that is coming. No earthly idea how they will be able to plan for all the gridlock that is coming. I cannot even imagine sitting in that Fishhawk traffic. I'd rather move to North Dakota before I do that. It must be brutal trying to go get some Chinese takeout or pick up dry cleaning in that. By the time they widen that road, DeSantis's 8-year presidential term will be ancient history and Tom Brady will have great-great-grandchildren. I have had a home in South Tampa for 15 years and the consumer options and roads have gotten worse, not better. However I never deal with Fishhawk type traffic because my home is in South Tampa and what I see when I'm in town is minimal urban traffic and there's many many options for getting from A to B.
To be fair, all of those things are immediately available from the two large shopping plazas that are immediately accessible to Fishhawk. There is a dry cleaner, a Chinese restaurant, two banks, a Publix and a Win Dixie, and an Ace Hardware that's not too far away.
All of that aside... it's not bad so long as you do not have a daily drive to down-town Tampa... which I HAD, but now I work from home. I can even get gigabtye and 2-gigabit internet, which is fantastic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinatras
All these people that are moving here (like you), I guess they will be content to just sit in their homes 24/7. Because driving anywhere is going to be impossible. Not that there's that much to do here to drive to anyway.
As for the schools, yep, you downgraded. People never believe me when I say that A rated schools here are C elsewhere.
Hahah... I remember you, New Yorker... always giving me a hard time for moving here. I did not "just" move here. Yes, I moved from San Antonio where I was for 4 years to Tampa. But I have a long history in Florida. I moved here in the mid 90s when I turned 18, and currently own 3 properties in Florida. I literally have a pension with one of the Florida NFL teams here, and worked for two combatant commands in Florida... so I do take some umbrage when I get cast off as one of the people who move here. I think if I remember correctly, I have more stake to Florida residency than you do big guy! (I mean all of this in a nice way, in case that doesn't come through properly).
The schools in Fishhawk are fairly decent... not to the "A+" level I had in North East ISD in San Antonio, or even in Cooper City, Florida... but they're "B+/A-" rated. They have all the same problem the other schools have, but my daughter has had some really good teachers, despite the overall resources not being as spectacular, and the whole woke stuff that I wont get into.
Right on target on the schools. While Fishhawk has some of the best in the county, compared to the northeast or midwest they're average at best.
Hillsborough County has had it's head up it's *ss over infrastructure and impact fees for decades, and you're experiencing the results of that. I kid you not - impact fees were the same in 1996 when I built my first house here as they were in 2016. It's just recently that the County Commissioners got their heads out of their butts and started to get real about impact fees. If you look at adjacent counties, like Pasco, who charge impact fees to developers and builder that reflect the actual costs of the infrastructure, you can see the results of it. The SR 56 corridor in Pasco County is a perfect example.
Lithia Pinecrest was designed to be four lanes decades ago, yet it still hasn't been widened. Bell Shoals is just now being widened to four lanes as it was originally designed for in the early 1990s. That was planned to be done around 1998.
Why did it take so long? Two reasons:
1.) The economic collapse of 2008-2012 or thereabouts. Tax revenues and impact fees dried up.
2.) The method by which the County allocates impact fees for infrastructure projects:
There is a geographical area that impact fees apply to. Let's say it's Brandon - any impact fees collected in Brandon only go to projects in Brandon. Makes sense, right? But - here's the rub - let's say there are 20 infrastructure projects on the books in Brandon. They're funded with the impact fees as they're developed, that is, chronologically. Which means that with the lapse of funding that occurred for a number of years, old projects didn't get done, and more (new) projects piled on top of the list.
So impact fees that might be paid this year from current development won't go to infrastructure projects for the current development, they'll go to fund projects that are wayyyy back in the line which came up 5, maybe even 10 years or more ago.
When the Walmart was built on Bloomingdale Avenue some years back, the changes to the traffic volume made it a failed ("F") road. The impact fees from that project didn't go to road improvements on Bloomingdale, they went to the intersection improvement project at Lithia/Lumsden/Durant roads, as that was the next project in the queue.
So the development you see today is paying for projects that were planned years ago.
To be fair, all of those things are immediately available from the two large shopping plazas that are immediately accessible to Fishhawk. There is a dry cleaner, a Chinese restaurant, two banks, a Publix and a Win Dixie, and an Ace Hardware that's not too far away.
All of that aside... it's not bad so long as you do not have a daily drive to down-town Tampa... which I HAD, but now I work from home. I can even get gigabtye and 2-gigabit internet, which is fantastic.
Hahah... I remember you, New Yorker... always giving me a hard time for moving here. I did not "just" move here. Yes, I moved from San Antonio where I was for 4 years to Tampa. But I have a long history in Florida. I moved here in the mid 90s when I turned 18, and currently own 3 properties in Florida. I literally have a pension with one of the Florida NFL teams here, and worked for two combatant commands in Florida... so I do take some umbrage when I get cast off as one of the people who move here. I think if I remember correctly, I have more stake to Florida residency than you do big guy! (I mean all of this in a nice way, in case that doesn't come through properly).
The schools in Fishhawk are fairly decent... not to the "A+" level I had in North East ISD in San Antonio, or even in Cooper City, Florida... but they're "B+/A-" rated. They have all the same problem the other schools have, but my daughter has had some really good teachers, despite the overall resources not being as spectacular, and the whole woke stuff that I wont get into.
I'm not a New Yorker. You have me confused with someone else. I am a native Floridian.
Right on target on the schools. While Fishhawk has some of the best in the county, compared to the northeast or midwest they're average at best.
Hillsborough County has had it's head up it's *ss over infrastructure and impact fees for decades, and you're experiencing the results of that. I kid you not - impact fees were the same in 1996 when I built my first house here as they were in 2016. It's just recently that the County Commissioners got their heads out of their butts and started to get real about impact fees. If you look at adjacent counties, like Pasco, who charge impact fees to developers and builder that reflect the actual costs of the infrastructure, you can see the results of it. The SR 56 corridor in Pasco County is a perfect example.
Lithia Pinecrest was designed to be four lanes decades ago, yet it still hasn't been widened. Bell Shoals is just now being widened to four lanes as it was originally designed for in the early 1990s. That was planned to be done around 1998.
Why did it take so long? Two reasons:
1.) The economic collapse of 2008-2012 or thereabouts. Tax revenues and impact fees dried up.
2.) The method by which the County allocates impact fees for infrastructure projects:
There is a geographical area that impact fees apply to. Let's say it's Brandon - any impact fees collected in Brandon only go to projects in Brandon. Makes sense, right? But - here's the rub - let's say there are 20 infrastructure projects on the books in Brandon. They're funded with the impact fees as they're developed, that is, chronologically. Which means that with the lapse of funding that occurred for a number of years, old projects didn't get done, and more (new) projects piled on top of the list.
So impact fees that might be paid this year from current development won't go to infrastructure projects for the current development, they'll go to fund projects that are wayyyy back in the line which came up 5, maybe even 10 years or more ago.
When the Walmart was built on Bloomingdale Avenue some years back, the changes to the traffic volume made it a failed ("F") road. The impact fees from that project didn't go to road improvements on Bloomingdale, they went to the intersection improvement project at Lithia/Lumsden/Durant roads, as that was the next project in the queue.
So the development you see today is paying for projects that were planned years ago.
RM
Bell Shoals is exactly the one I was thinking about. It seems to have been under construction for as long as I've been here.
In your opinion, how realistic do you think it will be before they actually start widening Lithia Pinecrest?
Bell Shoals is exactly the one I was thinking about. It seems to have been under construction for as long as I've been here.
In your opinion, how realistic do you think it will be before they actually start widening Lithia Pinecrest?
Do you think MAYBE within the next 5 years?
Bell Shoals was actually scheduled to start in 2019, but there were some shenanigans going on with property acquisition as the County discovered they needed to buy a bunch of 4' sections of people's lots near the north end (on the west side just south of the apartments.) That slowed things down to a crawl and delayed it for a good year or more until all the property could be purchased and deals worked out with the locals.
It's a two year project, worked in four six month segments starting from the south end of Bell Shoals and it's on schedule. Should be finished the end of this year.
Lithia Pinecrest widening is going to be a nightmare when it begins, if it ever does. They've done a fair amount of the surveying and land acquisition from Brooker Road to Bloomingdale, but to the north it's sketchy in that regard. It will no doubt be done in sections, and when/if it's started will last for easily 3-5 years I'm guessing.
RM
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