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If there's a shell left and they can sell it they can, of course provided the HOA approves and also the county. You're not going to be able to sell a SHELL if the entire place isn't being rebuilt to code with PROOF.
In any HOA when there are abandoned units, FOR ANY REASON, the HOA reserves are used. Until the HOA is disbanded and if there are assets they are distributed among the property owners. That would be in a case, say that nobody wanted an HOA anymore and turned it into a rental complex.
Also since you are not familiar with condos be advised that YOU are usually responsible for a good amount of what is INSIDE the walls but most newbies don't think so. For example if you're on the second floor the HOA is ONLY responsible for the common plumbing between you and the downstairs unit and YOU are responsible for all standalone pipes into your unit.
Also in older building experiencing copper pipe leaks due to age, you start with pinhole leaks then a flood and it's all on YOU. Unless it's the MAIN "riser" or pipe.
It's all according to each indiviual HOA's governing documents.
My building was destroyed when the roof blew off in 2004 back to back hurricanes. I paid for everything inside. (insurance). People had to relocate for a year. Not every building was uninhabitable.
Some people walk away after a hot water heater leak especially snowbirds. They are the ones the rest of the homeowners get stuck with in order to not devalue the whole place. During the crash this happened all the time. We sold the units "as is" for half the original bubble value. We meaning the HOA which means the property owners.
Laws about interior homeowner condo insurance have gone back and forth over the years. In general the HOAs demand it.
Wow, the knowledge level of people on this board is fantastic. Thank you so much for your detailed input. Sorry to hear the roof was blown off - scary. I'm a snowbird who isn't rich trying to find a way to afford a winter and possibly ultimately year round place but the insurance thing is demolishing that hope as again, I'm not rich.
I know someone in the condo building I mentioned in Gulfport who does not have insurance on her unit and that is how she was able to afford it, given the extraordinary insurance costs. I was trying to gain an understanding of an Ian style wreckage and what happens to those who went "bare". If you own a house, you can sell the land. A condo, not the case.
Anyway, thank you again. The internet definitely isn't ALL bad!
The rules for every condo association I have ever dealt with over the years contains a clause stating the unit owners must carry adequate replacement coverage insurance for their units' areas that are not covered by the condo association master policy. This coverage is not mandatory per the state, but as I said, I have not come across even one condo association that allows unit owners to go without insurance coverage.
I have also read that unit owners are still required to make their monthly or quarterly payments to the condo association even if their unit is damaged or destroyed and not livable.
Hi and thank you for your response. Much appreciated. Someone I know in this little building in Gulfport does not carry insurance on the unit so I guess it happens, if it's perhaps rare. I totally understand the reasons for carrying insurance, but I also understand why people need to sometimes go "bare" given the extraordinary cost of insurance in Florida these days.
One question: is it possible to get an insurance quote on a condo unit for BEFORE you buy, or at least an approximate? Not based on what the seller was paying, but based on what the buyer will likely pay? Are insurers or agents even willing to do that?
Ok that was a pretty epic storm and those were older buildings which may have failed due to age/lack of current building codes. But now after storms like this and the condo collapse in Surfside, the state is forcing more inspections of older buildings..........this is going to crush the building budgets (reserves will probably not cover the necessary work/upgrades) and insurance will be tougher to get in some older buildings.
I have a family member with a 5500 sq ft condo in an oceanfront building. The HOA fee is $4000 a month but there are only 28 units in the building. They just got a 100K assessment and the building is now 40 yrs old (milestone point on inspections). 100K assessment X 28 units is 2.8mm so obviously they want to do multiple upgrades and with only 28 units the costs are high per unit. It has always been a very well maintained building but 4 units are for sale right now, 2 are older people that are likely moving to assisted living but the other 2 are people looking to move on. The elevators were just replaced at a cost of $80,000 (not sure if that is each or total for both).
I wouldn't but an older condo no matter how good of a deal it is......or seems to be. New buildings usually are light on reserves so that presents another issue, they didn't build up enough cash yet.
Thanks for your response.
$4k a month condo fee!! Is this Miami Beach, I wonder? Naples?
The assessment issue is going to be absolutely everywhere given the Surfside tragedy, and it makes perfect sense given the dire potential consequences. I'm just sad that this is going to drive anyone but wealthy folks from the state. Goodbye to the middle class. Goodbye social security pensioniers.
Huh? Not at all. Homeowners Condo insurance Ho6 is two parts. 1. Dwelling - the structural building property protection for interior walls drywall and anything built in the walls like bookcases, cabinetry.
2. Your personal property coverage is separate and pays for such as electronics, appliances, furniture and clothing. Some condo insurers combine dwelling and personal property coverages.
Then the extras like Loss of Use, Loss Assessment, Liability.
HOA bylaws/master ins policies can be different and all need careful research including what is INSIDE the walls like unit specific plumbing. TYPES:
Bare walls coverage only will protect the walls, floors, and ceilings of your unit.
Single entity coverage includes not just bare walls but also fixtures such as cabinets and sinks. It does not include upgrades that you may have made, like replacing the original carpet with hardwood floors.
All-inclusive coverage protects like single entity coverage as well as improvements that you may have made, such as remodeling your kitchen or adding built-ins in your master closet.
Wow. Again, I am so grateful for the knowledgeable folks on this board. That complete strangers take the time to assist others is one of the wonderful upsides to the Internet, for sure.
I hadn't realized there were 3 tiers of coverage like this.
Ok that was a pretty epic storm and those were older buildings which may have failed due to age/lack of current building codes. But now after storms like this and the condo collapse in Surfside, the state is forcing more inspections of older buildings..........this is going to crush the building budgets (reserves will probably not cover the necessary work/upgrades) and insurance will be tougher to get in some older buildings.
I have a family member with a 5500 sq ft condo in an oceanfront building. The HOA fee is $4000 a month but there are only 28 units in the building. They just got a 100K assessment and the building is now 40 yrs old (milestone point on inspections). 100K assessment X 28 units is 2.8mm so obviously they want to do multiple upgrades and with only 28 units the costs are high per unit. It has always been a very well maintained building but 4 units are for sale right now, 2 are older people that are likely moving to assisted living but the other 2 are people looking to move on. The elevators were just replaced at a cost of $80,000 (not sure if that is each or total for both).
I wouldn't but an older condo no matter how good of a deal it is......or seems to be. New buildings usually are light on reserves so that presents another issue, they didn't build up enough cash yet.
It depends on the Association. Some Associations had no reserves and voted not to fund the mandatory ones thus the new legislation disallowing an override on the mandatory ones and establishing fully funding based on structural reserve study. I would not buy a unit in any Association, new or old, that does not have adequate reserves. As far as age, some of the older buildings are built better than newer one, particularly those built in the 80s. If an older building has been keeping up with maintenance and upgrades, and reserving appropriately, I would not pass on it just because of its age.
The rules for every condo association I have ever dealt with over the years contains a clause stating the unit owners must carry adequate replacement coverage insurance for their units' areas that are not covered by the condo association master policy. This coverage is not mandatory per the state, but as I said, I have not come across even one condo association that allows unit owners to go without insurance coverage.
I have also read that unit owners are still required to make their monthly or quarterly payments to the condo association even if their unit is damaged or destroyed and not livable.
Many buildings are not asking if an owner has insurance and how high or low their coverage is. Many owners that I know have the bare minimum and are mostly self insured.
Any smart owner has some insurance as when the bathroom has a leak you need to be covered for damage to the floor below you and liability insurance.
But I’ve never heard of any owner in a building that has no insurance at all. Often low insurance coverage is considered being self insured.
Many buildings are not asking if an owner has insurance and how high or low their coverage is. Many owners that I know have the bare minimum and are mostly self insured.
Any smart owner has some insurance as when the bathroom has a leak you need to be covered for damage to the floor below you and liability insurance.
But I’ve never heard of any owner in a building that has no insurance at all. Often low insurance coverage is considered being self insured.
You're kidding.
I'd say half the people in my old HOA condo were uninsured and there are 100 buildings 1500 residents.
I bought my last condo from one. They had a plumbing flood, were uninsured, (yes you can call it self insured). They paid $32K for the place in the 2011 timeframe crash but now the comps were up around $130K.
They chose to repair and remodel while they were at it. But they were snowbirds around 83 years old and realized coming to FL from VA was too much so they sold it.
Wow. Again, I am so grateful for the knowledgeable folks on this board. That complete strangers take the time to assist others is one of the wonderful upsides to the Internet, for sure.
I hadn't realized there were 3 tiers of coverage like this.
Thank you.
You're welcome. There's a lot to condos especially in FL.
Checklist off the top of my head:
1. You get the docs disclosures and meeting minutes when you make your offer - by law.
You want that they MUST fund reserves. Bear in mind they can vote to NOT FUND at any time so you want a "STRICT" community where people are the "same" temperament. Easier said than done LOL.
(I just sold one they voted to PARTIALLY fund reserves but due to mismanagement they had so much debt and with insurance increases had to STILL raise the monthly maintenance from $371 to $550. PARTIALLY FUNDED!) $640 SQ FEET!!!!
Some previous idiots had taken out a HUGE LOAN for millions to repave all the roads that didn't even need it so they had debt.
I had put my unit up for sale at $145K and right after that announcement FIFTY other units went up for sale so I lowered my price by $18K and got OUT.
Luckily, I only bought it for a part time solution to not finding a rental. I am OVER being a homeowner it had nothing to do with the costs although I was of course IRATE they voted to NOT FULLY FUND and also the HUGE increase. But some people think they'll die before they are forced into a lump sum assessment LOL.
2. FLorida being a damp and salty climate can have a REBAR problem. See: that place that collapsed down So Fl. You want up to date engineering certification AND repairs. It can be costly IF they haven't escrowed it in reserves. So then you have to get an assessment. My mother got an assessment for TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS twenty years ago for her Intracoastal Waterway condo. OTOH, my 1200 sf condo that the roof blew off...needed rebar and concrete repairs in the common atrium and only assessed us $250.00 which we VOTED for.
3. Copper pipes wear out. If your building is older than 10 years budget for REPIPING in the walls. It costs around 5,000 for a 1200 SF unit (one of my last condos here). Otherwise some day you'll wake up to the whole joint having flood of some size. Once you get ONE pinhole leak you'll get a BUNCH more. The threshold is 30 years you're in trouble.
EACH HOA DOCUMENTS' BYLAWS MIGHT SPELL IT OUT OR BE VAGUE SO YOU HAVE TO BE PREPARED.
EXAMPLE:
YOUR MASTER BATH:
All the places you may get a plumbing leak and need repairs which certainly mean removing and replacing tile:
Shower head
Shower faucets
Shower pan
Sink (S?)
pipes behind drywall
And you probably get ONE FREEBEE insurance claim before they drop you then you have to pay premium.
IF YOU MOVE IN A FIRST FLOOR YOU GET TO BE FLOODED BY THE UPSTAIRS UNIT.
WE ARE NO FAULT.
I FLOODED MY BFF TWICE DOWNSTAIRS LOL, NOT MY FAULT.
SHE GOT DROPPED AFTER SUBMITTING ENORMOUS CLAIMS (her bad for wanting remodeling) AND ENDED UP PAYING AROUND $8k PER YEAR TO COVER 1200 SQ FOOT.
4. Everything is done by vote for the MOST part so you want an active community or be prepared to be fully self sufficient financially.
Get the proof of the entire place's roof status.
5. ALWAYS ALWAYS GET FLOOD INSURANCE FOR THE GROUND FLOOR EVEN NOT IN A "FEMA FLOOD ZONE". Fema does the insurance but your insurance agent can often arrange it with your homeowners.
We have a high water table and ****ty construction/grading so you get rainstorm flooding sometimes.
We had 11 inches of rain once in 3 hours. Everyone had to stay stuck where they were with cars floating up!!! for HOURS.
I've been in communities where three identical buildings were THREE different HOAS and one had NO ROOF because they voted to not fund reserves.!!! In 2009. They had a TARP and mold all in the INHABITED BUILDING right next door to two other okay buildings.
Thank God I forced the agent to show me the non-roof building but I didn't know it was missing a roof at the time I just had seen the MLS listing. YOU COULD SEE THE SKY INSIDE HAHAHAHA!
THEN she disclosed the BS.
So WHO would want to live in a large community where specific buildings can get shot to hell?
So much .....LOL
PS. BTW MY ROOF CAME OFF BEFORE THE "MIAMI DADE STANDARD" THAT THE STATE FOLLOWS NOW SO THAT'S NOT A HUGE CONCERN ANY MORE. BUT ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS GET AN INSPECTION AND TRIPLE CHECK WHAT THEY TELL YOU.
I HAD A GUY TELL ME THE A/C WAS 4 YEARS OLD AND IT WAS 14.
I LOOKED UP THE SERIAL NUMBER ONLINE.
Oh yeah, you'll need to budget around 40-50 per month to save for a new AC system every ten years or so. They take a beating here.
Yeah, like I said....so much LOL.
Last edited by jaxrivers; 06-23-2023 at 12:28 PM..
Location: Sarasota/ Bradenton - University Pkwy area
4,631 posts, read 7,572,316 times
Reputation: 6068
[I
One question: is it possible to get an insurance quote on a condo unit for BEFORE you buy, or at least an approximate? Not based on what the seller was paying, but based on what the buyer will likely pay? Are insurers or agents even willing to do that?
][/i]
Yes, buyers get quotes all the time before closing. Insurance companies are going to want to see a copy of the Wind Mitigation report for the building, which you can get a copy of from the condo association or their management company. Most will also want to see a copy of at minimum a 4 Point Inspection report on the condo's condition that covers the electrical, plumbing, HVAC system and roof.
By the way, this is a good time to mention general information for condo buyers in Florida:
Before buying a condo in any community, you will want to see the condo docs -- the Rules & Regulations, Bylaws and voting rights, BUDGETS, Budget Reserves. You'll also want to ask the Board or management company whether there are any current or pending special assessments and/ or lawsuits against the condo association.
Under Florida law a buyer can cancel a transaction within three days from the time the buyer executes the purchase contract and receives a current copy of the condominium documents (the declaration of condominium, articles of incorporation, bylaws, rules of the association, most recent year-end financial information and the frequently asked questions and answers document). You should request the condo docs from the seller in writing. This is normally done thru a condo addendum attached to your purchase offer. The three-day period is calculated in business days. It excludes Saturdays, Sundays and legal holidays. This period cannot be waived or amended per FL statutes. You will want to use that time to carefully read over the condo docs so you understand what you are buying into.
The financials of a condo association are, in my opinion, as important (if not more so) than current monthly maintenance fees. Is the association meeting it's current financial obligations? Do they have sufficient reserves for the more expensive maintenance/repair items (such as roofs) or can you expect to see special assessments to help cover costs? How many owners are behind in their payments? Are there any current special assessments or discussions about doing special assessments? This is especially important when dealing with older condo builders and any condo community if located on or near beaches due to the additional maintenance issues created by the salt air.
The condo docs will tell you what you as unit owner are responsible for maintaining, what the condo association maintains. Generally, the unit owner is responsible for anything from the exterior wall studs inward -- so all drywall, electrical, plumbing, appliances, etc. Some condo associations make unit owners responsible for windows and doors as well, read the documents carefully. Roofs are often the responsibility of the condo association, but not always - you'll want to know up front who is responsible for roof maintenance and replacement for your building. You'll want to factor in insurance costs for the interior of your condo (all condo docs I've seen require unit owners to carry their own insurance for their individual units).
Condo ownership is great for those who want to live in our area but do not want to commit to the responsibilities of owning a single family residence. However, as with any purchase, it pays to do your homework up front so there are no "surprises" after closing.
You're welcome. There's a lot to condos especially in FL.
Checklist off the top of my head:
1. You get the docs disclosures and meeting minutes when you make your offer - by law.
You want that they MUST fund reserves. Bear in mind they can vote to NOT FUND at any time so you want a "STRICT" community where people are the "same" temperament. Easier said than done LOL.
(I just sold one they voted to PARTIALLY fund reserves but due to mismanagement they had so much debt and with insurance increases had to STILL raise the monthly maintenance from $371 to $550. PARTIALLY FUNDED!) $640 SQ FEET!!!!
Some previous idiots had taken out a HUGE LOAN for millions to repave all the roads that didn't even need it so they had debt.
I had put my unit up for sale at $145K and right after that announcement FIFTY other units went up for sale so I lowered my price by $18K and got OUT.
Luckily, I only bought it for a part time solution to not finding a rental. I am OVER being a homeowner it had nothing to do with the costs although I was of course IRATE they voted to NOT FULLY FUND and also the HUGE increase. But some people think they'll die before they are forced into a lump sum assessment LOL.
2. FLorida being a damp and salty climate can have a REBAR problem. See: that place that collapsed down So Fl. You want up to date engineering certification AND repairs. It can be costly IF they haven't escrowed it in reserves. So then you have to get an assessment. My mother got an assessment for TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS twenty years ago for her Intracoastal Waterway condo. OTOH, my 1200 sf condo that the roof blew off...needed rebar and concrete repairs in the common atrium and only assessed us $250.00 which we VOTED for.
3. Copper pipes wear out. If your building is older than 10 years budget for REPIPING in the walls. It costs around 5,000 for a 1200 SF unit (one of my last condos here). Otherwise some day you'll wake up to the whole joint having flood of some size. Once you get ONE pinhole leak you'll get a BUNCH more. The threshold is 30 years you're in trouble.
EACH HOA DOCUMENTS' BYLAWS MIGHT SPELL IT OUT OR BE VAGUE SO YOU HAVE TO BE PREPARED.
EXAMPLE:
YOUR MASTER BATH:
All the places you may get a plumbing leak and need repairs which certainly mean removing and replacing tile:
Shower head
Shower faucets
Shower pan
Sink (S?)
pipes behind drywall
And you probably get ONE FREEBEE insurance claim before they drop you then you have to pay premium.
IF YOU MOVE IN A FIRST FLOOR YOU GET TO BE FLOODED BY THE UPSTAIRS UNIT.
WE ARE NO FAULT.
I FLOODED MY BFF TWICE DOWNSTAIRS LOL, NOT MY FAULT.
SHE GOT DROPPED AFTER SUBMITTING ENORMOUS CLAIMS (her bad for wanting remodeling) AND ENDED UP PAYING AROUND $8k PER YEAR TO COVER 1200 SQ FOOT.
4. Everything is done by vote for the MOST part so you want an active community or be prepared to be fully self sufficient financially.
Get the proof of the entire place's roof status.
5. ALWAYS ALWAYS GET FLOOD INSURANCE FOR THE GROUND FLOOR EVEN NOT IN A "FEMA FLOOD ZONE". Fema does the insurance but your insurance agent can often arrange it with your homeowners.
We have a high water table and ****ty construction/grading so you get rainstorm flooding sometimes.
We had 11 inches of rain once in 3 hours. Everyone had to stay stuck where they were with cars floating up!!! for HOURS.
I've been in communities where three identical buildings were THREE different HOAS and one had NO ROOF because they voted to not fund reserves.!!! In 2009. They had a TARP and mold all in the INHABITED BUILDING right next door to two other okay buildings.
Thank God I forced the agent to show me the non-roof building but I didn't know it was missing a roof at the time I just had seen the MLS listing. YOU COULD SEE THE SKY INSIDE HAHAHAHA!
THEN she disclosed the BS.
So WHO would want to live in a large community where specific buildings can get shot to hell?
So much .....LOL
PS. BTW MY ROOF CAME OFF BEFORE THE "MIAMI DADE STANDARD" THAT THE STATE FOLLOWS NOW SO THAT'S NOT A HUGE CONCERN ANY MORE. BUT ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS GET AN INSPECTION AND TRIPLE CHECK WHAT THEY TELL YOU.
I HAD A GUY TELL ME THE A/C WAS 4 YEARS OLD AND IT WAS 14.
I LOOKED UP THE SERIAL NUMBER ONLINE.
Oh yeah, you'll need to budget around 40-50 per month to save for a new AC system every ten years or so. They take a beating here.
Yeah, like I said....so much LOL.
Holy moly, so many great points - thank you again. The story of the 3 HOAs in the same community and one building - which was inhabited - having a tarp-only roof !!! - is certainly the stuff of unthinkable nightmares.
I would absolutely pour over all condo docs, meeting minutes, and inspections were I to buy.
I would absolutely never buy a first floor condo. Having lived in buildings with problematic people over my head keeping me awake every night, I am 1 million percent allergic to anyone living overhead. That is my ultimate deal breaker.
What is especially off-putting is the story of your friend's $8k insurance premium for a 1200 sq foot condo. That is $666 a month just for insurance - presumably not including flood. It's things like this that would end my ability to afford even a cheap condo. Yuck.
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