light vs heavy rail...Tampa needs Light Rail, not trains (Miami: car rental, rental)

[imguytpa]

I could see a successful system here, perhaps a San Diego type system of light rail might be a good fit. If designed well, people will use it. Most will still be in cars, but as Tampa grows, so does population density. Give people a reason to take mass transit to work & some will.

[TampaKaren]

I attended the TBARTA road show in Carrollwood last month. The current 2035 plan was adopted in May 2009 and is supposed to go before the BOCC for ratifying in October. I was one of only a handful of attendees. Maps, plans, and a calendar of meetings are on TBARTA's website.

People living here whine for mass transit, but no one wants it in their back yard nor do they want to pay for it. Attitudes such as some found within this thread are one of the reasons progress is impeded. Most people don't want to participate in strategic planning, yet they'd rather complain about others' visions. Goes back to the old adage: Don't be a part of the problem; be a part of the solution. Loop back and repeat and here we are today.

The Carrollwood Community Plan includes some type of light rail (preferred) or rapid transit located within the median of Dale Mabry Highway with community centers and walk overs at regular intervals. I don't know how it will all shake out, but at least we're working (volunteering) toward a better life for our children and our children's children.

[Jimrob1]

I don't live anywhere near Florida, but I follow areas that show some interest in public transit in large Metro's. Although truthfully there seems to be little interest there and by few. With that said, and from the many times I have visited the state as well as the Tampa Bay area I have to say this.

I happen to live in the poster child of Light Rail and public transit, Portland, Oregon. It takes many years of planning and then the actual constuction time to open just one rail line. We have 3 lines here and the 4th the Green Line opens Sept 12th. For example on the time it takes to open the line, the green line was planned for at least 12 years and the construction time has been 5 years. It has been built on time based on the construction schedule. It is a 12 mile line I believe. The entire Light Rail system began construction in 1982, that is how many years it takes even with all the Federal, State and tax payer money that went into and continually goes into construction. For me I would rather pay the taxes and build these lines, than to sit in ridiculous amounts of traffic, and the danger of the type drivers of today. Evidently many in FLorida would rather sit in traffic I have met them. They don't want or like transit, don't want to pay for it, don't want it in their neighborhood. Don't want the riff raff it brings. Don't want to walk to a bus or train station. A ton of reasons they have but no solutions. Again Im sorry the ones that want something done in the region will probably die of old age first.

As much as I like the Tampa Bay area I believe in being realistic. There is interest among some residents there but it is not nearly enough. I don't completely understand that, since so many people there are from the Northeast and Upper Midwest and have used transit in their lives.
I would have thought right there a push would have been made, but it takes Politics as well as citizens putting their foot down. That push is there by some residents and a politician or two, but just not nearly enough, and for them I really feel sorry that it seems to be that way.


I think even if one line was being constructed today it is years away from being in operation. I think its very sad but like I said I believe in being realistic. If someone is say in their 50's or 60's, I doubt they will see much of anything in operation in the area in their lifetime. As I said it takes alot of planning and construction time to build even one rail line. The actually planning time and obtaining the right of ways takes years in itself.

Is there some reason that a sizeable and efficient bus system can't be put in place in that entire region? I know there is HART and the Pinellas Bus, but they are extremely limited. Or is it again a denial about just how few people really care, and prefer that car and the cost of it as their main form of transportation You have to find the source of the problem to fix the problem, and I do feel it is a lack of interest and the willingness to pay for a change that is the problem. I feel that many feel they are to good to sit on a bus or train, that it is just the poor and underprivledged that ride them. I feel that many just have had a life of driving and that is all they will ever do, even if it took 3 hours each way in bumper to bumper traffic to get somewhere 10 miles away.

I personally feel there is just not enough interest in the Southern USA to deal with this problem.
Charlotte is the only city that has done anything and only after constant fighting about it. Jackso nville has a bus system that rivals what small town America has. Atlanta and its Marta, the citizens and politicians have kept it from being extended for decades now. Miami to Palm Beach another mess of limited ways to get around. Seems everyone is forced to own a car within cities. Forget the small towns, one can understand needing a car for everything there, but in the city one needs choices.

It would be best to build a proper and extensive bus system in Tampa St Pete than to talk about building a rail system that may have 1 line 20 or 25 years from now.

[bnepler]

It will never run in the black. It will be in the red like 99% of the systems. Maybe the big "O" will force everyone to live and work in the city and everything will be fine!!

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by bnepler

I been to other countries that use the rail system. Americans will have to be forced to ride it and live in the inner cities for it to be a success. I'm not ready to live in the cities nor give up my car. Spend a couple weeks in Europe, Asis or any other continent that depends on trains and you'll see why they don't go over big here. It's called "freedom". It's something we have and most others don't.

Popularity of the private automobile is dependent upon cheap and plentiful petroleum. Prior to the 1920s, electric urban and interurban trains (streetcars) were very successful.

The Streetcar Conspiracy - How General Motors Deliberately Destroyed Public Transit (http://saveourwetlands.org/streetcar.htm - broken link)

GM killed [public transit] by employing a host of anti-competitive devices, which, like National City Lines, debased rail transit and promoted auto sales.

This is not about a "plot" hatch by wild-eyed corporate rogues, but rather about a consummate business strategy crafted by Alfred P. Sloan, Jr., the MIT-trained genius behind General Motors, to expand auto sales and maximize profits by eliminating streetcars. In 1922, according to GM's own files, Sloan established a special unit within the corporation, which was charged, among other things, with the task of replacing America's electric railways with cars, trucks and buses.

A year earlier, in 1921, GM lost $65 million, leading Sloan to conclude that the auto market was saturated, that those who desired cars already owned them, and that the only way to increase GM's sales and restore its profitability was by eliminating its principal rival: electric railways.

The "freedom" of the automobile, was an expensive addiction for the benefit of GM, et al. And let us not forget the tax burden to subsidize the infrastructure necessary for the automobile. (And eternally chewed up by tax subsidized heavy 18 wheel rigs....)

[tinytrump]

Im from Miami and it does work! So do not say in Fla it doesn't- but in Tampabay is it's all about MY TAXES only for MY BACKYARD attitude, and do not want to subsidise anyone else's transportation...& that is how they view it... I am all for it, but as I said in another post- it has to make sense,,, right now when I move to West Hillsbourgh (almost to Oldsmar )I cannot get a bus that goes directly to Dale Mabry where I could transfer and maybe hit the International mall area. IT take me 3 hrs to make those 7 miles by bus , the same as bicycle, makes No sense.. We need bit more thinking in the transportation department, and a few more jobs for people to go to. People would ride more,,, with a destination and timely manner to get there. I also say let the Jitneys come.. In Miami they just ride on one street for $1.00 ei.. up and down Dale Mabry or east to west Hillsborough,,, be great. maybe Airport to Armenia,, and back - just all the main veins- I dont get why they DONT?

[roadtrip75]

(responding to a 2009 post)

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

Prior to the 1920s, electric urban and interurban trains (streetcars) were very successful.

But in the 1920s all American cities were successful vibrant locales. They were composed of similar people with similar mindsets living under a single culture. That changed in the aftermath of the Great Migration and the urban riots.

We no longer live in that world. 1920s solutions won't solve 2013 problems.

[gulfer]

I lived in Yokosuksa Japan while in the Navy (about 40 miles South of Tokyo) and they have a fantastic train and bus system. But you have to have the support of the 'feeder lines' to make this anywhere near a success. If the train drops you off more than a mile from your home, are you going to walk in this heat, in that thunderstorm?

I would like nothing more to see something like this ease the traffic in the city and truly make this a convienient city to travel around in. But it will take a significant amount of money that I am not sure this city, State or Country has right now.

[thethinktank]

Originally Posted by roadtrip75

That changed in the aftermath of the Great Migration and the urban riots .

This isn't Detroit.

Originally Posted by roadtrip75

We no longer live in that world. 1920s solutions won't solve 2013 problems.

There was a suburban flight in the mid 20th century that is in the process of reversing.

In the 8 years following the 2000 US Census, Tampa's population increased 15%. Since the 2010 census, Tampa's urban population has grown faster than any of the 10 largest cities in Florida. Our local population is urbanizing faster than the average in Florida, and the trend lines continue to point fast-paced growth.

Then there's the other element of demand-- speaking of the year 2000, the average cost of a gallon of gasoline in the United States was $1.51.

The two most likely scenarios as suggested by these trends are that 1) the cost of gasoline will continue to increase, and 2) the urban population of Tampa will continue to increase. As we proceed down these trend lines, the need for intra-urban rail transit will increase.

And last-- just because a form of transit was used in the 1920s doesn't mean its technical ancestor isn't a potentially ideal solution today.

[chi_tino]

Originally Posted by tinytrump

Im from Miami and it does work! So do not say in Fla it doesn't- but in Tampabay is it's all about MY TAXES only for MY BACKYARD attitude, and do not want to subsidise anyone else's transportation...& that is how they view it...

Miami's system, like most other systems, is a horrific financial failure. It is so bad that the Miami Dade Transit Authority no longer relases the annual losses publicly. In 2006, the last year it reported data, it had $24 million in operating losses, and didn't even pay a single dime towards the billions of dollars used to build the monstrosity.

You are damn right it's all about my taxes. Unlike most of the deadbeats that claim this type of reasoning, I actually do pay property taxes -- a lot of them. I paid $315 last year to the Suncoast Transit Authority so that they can drive a bunch of empty buses around the county.

If you think I want to flush ten times as much down the toilet every year to fund some hippie's pipe dream, you are insane.