light vs heavy rail...Tampa needs Light Rail, not trains (school, university)

[thethinktank]

Originally Posted by chi_tino

flush ten times as much down the toilet every year to fund some hippie's pipe dream, you are insane.

Generally, when people rely on hyperbole and insults to voice their case-- they don't have one. It is an effective way to derail the conversation, though. Just look at Fox News.

[Tiger Beer]

Originally Posted by gulfer

I lived in Yokosuksa Japan while in the Navy (about 40 miles South of Tokyo) and they have a fantastic train and bus system. But you have to have the support of the 'feeder lines' to make this anywhere near a success. If the train drops you off more than a mile from your home, are you going to walk in this heat, in that thunderstorm?

I would like nothing more to see something like this ease the traffic in the city and truly make this a convienient city to travel around in. But it will take a significant amount of money that I am not sure this city, State or Country has right now.

I'm in Japan at the moment. Yeah, I regularly see amazing public transportation here in Japan, as I did in South Korea. As I have in Europe and other places as well.

It's interesting to see how well it works in most countries abroad, but doesn't at all in the U.S. I think all of the zoning restrictions in place in the U.S. make it more problematic. Plus, a complete lack of public support.

No matter what, each city has to build something, either more freeways, highways, lanes, etc. or another method. I've always felt that trains, light-rail, etc. essentially pay the city back. People pay to be on them. Whereas unless a highway is a toll road, it's just spending and building with no return. There is also something that bothers me far more about toll roads over train lines as well.

[chi_tino]

Originally Posted by thethinktank

Generally, when people rely on hyperbole and insults to voice their case-- they don't have one. It is an effective way to derail the conversation, though. Just look at Fox News.

I'm sorry, I quoted some numbers. If you wish, we can talk about how just about every light rail system in the US installed in the past 20 years has been a horrific financial failure.

I already pay a LOT of money to support a useless, failed public transit system. Now you think I should pay much, much more to expand this nonsense?

I didn't see any numbers coming from you. Let's see your "argument" in support of this financial folly. If you are going to seize the personal assets of citizens to pay for this, it had better be a heck of a good argument. Then again, most pro-rail people just make up fantasy figures. I can direct you to the joke of a Tampa trolley system that used criminally negligent assumptions to get it built.

[chi_tino]

Originally Posted by Tiger Beer

I'm in Japan at the moment. Yeah, I regularly see amazing public transportation here in Japan, as I did in South Korea. As I have in Europe and other places as well.

Are you actually attempting to compare the population density of Japan and South Korea with Tampa Bay?

[BPPT232]

I live in Pittsburgh now, but looking to relocate to Tampa or Jax soon. I know the light rail system that the OP speaks of well, as I ride it everyday. Pittsburgh is quite different. We have a horrible highway/road system and it is a nightmare to drive into the city and other places. Take that and include the hills/tunnels/lack of parking, it makes mass transit very important
But like many have already noted, these systems are not easy to build, and are not usually profitable, and many are mismanaged. Pittsburgh’s is probably the poster child for mismanaged. They have paid their employees outrageous salaries and benefits for decades, but are now facing reality. And these costs get put on the taxpayer and the riders, and every year they scramble to find some new sneaky way to channel money to pay for it. The last few years it was a mixture of a casino, car rental tax, and a tax on every alcoholic beverage. They refuse to restructure, so therefore they bleed the state for more and more. My fee to ride has exactly doubled in 5 years.

Along with public trans, it does create easy access for less desireable members of society to get into certain areas. To many, bus and train lines bring with it a channel for crime, etc.. Not all, but it does happen. I for one won't live near a bus line as I know it brings down property value.

I do love having the train to ride to work everyday from the suburbs, but mainly because if not, it would take me almost an hour to drive 7 miles, and pay $12/day to park. But I am a victim of where I live. If done right, it can be very beneficial, but as we all know it can become more of a burden to all, than a benefit of few. The northeast and southeast are two different cultures. That is why many move to areas like Florida to get away from certain kinds of thinking and lower taxes.

[jsun556]

Originally Posted by thethinktank

Generally, when people rely on hyperbole and insults to voice their case-- they don't have one. It is an effective way to derail the conversation, though. Just look at Fox News.

You must have missed the two paragraphs he typed before that in which his case was substantially argued.

[tinytrump]

Originally Posted by chi_tino

Miami's system, like most other systems, is a horrific financial failure. It is so bad that the Miami Dade Transit Authority no longer relases the annual losses publicly. In 2006, the last year it reported data, it had $24 million in operating losses, and didn't even pay a single dime towards the billions of dollars used to build the monstrosity.

Originally Posted by chi_tino

You are damn right it's all about my taxes. Unlike most of the deadbeats that claim this type of reasoning, I actually do pay property taxes -- a lot of them. I paid $315 last year to the Suncoast Transit Authority so that they can drive a bunch of empty buses around the county.

If you think I want to flush ten times as much down the toilet every year to fund some hippie's pipe dream, you are insane.

wha wha,, then move to a personal island, we all pay community fees one way or another and guess what buddy YOU- USE community programs and services, the roads, the lights on the road the guy who cleans the road etc etc. and transportation for the cook who fixes your lunch at your favorite high class restaurant, or even better- the nurses aide who comes clean up your dirty diaper after your surgey at a local hospital and the list goes ON- I am paying for some nuclear plant for electricity that may NEVER be built,,, check your last electric bill. You think you live alone and only responisible for me, myslef n mine,,, that kinda thinking lost the last vote, and sooner or later, we will have rail so people can ride.. gas will go up and more will use it. .

[jsun556]

A light rail tax would make Hillsborough the highest taxed county in the state. No thanks.

[tinytrump]

I personally do NOt understand why taxes are so high here, I had a home in Hollywood Fl and my tax was $1200 a yr w/homestead 7 yrs ago,,, that's SOUTH FLA...major stuff going on all the time... where is the tax money going towards in this area??

[thethinktank]

Originally Posted by chi_tino

I'm sorry, I quoted some numbers.

Miami's operating losses in 2006. Yep, saw that. In the next breath, you painted everyone on the opposing side of the argument as being hippies with pipe dreams, in a comment laden with hellfire hyperbole. Let's treat each other like adults, yeah?

Originally Posted by chi_tino

If you wish, we can talk about how just about every light rail system in the US installed in the past 20 years has been a horrific financial failure.

Yes, let's absolutely do that. Using further case studies to illustrate why a city of Tampa's size should avoid light rail would be a benefit to this conversation. That's a productive way of discussing this like adults.

A good example, and one often used as a central inspiration for Tampa's proposed rail line-- the Charlotte Lynx system. Its ridership is currently exceeding projections by over 50%. Our own mayor has pointed to this system often as a primary case study for Tampa's transit goals. It was built in the last 20 years (the last ten, actually) and has not been a horrific financial failure.

Originally Posted by chi_tino

I already pay a LOT of money to support a useless, failed public transit system.

I assume you're referring to the streetcar. It's not the first time you've mentioned it in these debates on City Data, you often try to toss it like a dead albatross around the necks of the pro-rail crowd. That's a cheap, disingenuous tactic though, and it's not going to work on smart people.

That little yellow streetcar with the whistles that runs between Franklin and Ybor IS NOT A PUBLIC TRANSIT SYSTEM. It's a poorly-conceived tourist gimmick that has no value to local commuters. It doesn't connect our major university with our international airport and either of our primary business centers. It's a gimmick, and a wasteful one that will continue in free fall with the Channelside development.

It does have a pair of tracks under it. Apparently, that means that everything else that does is "nonsense". Speaking of which, why in the world are we taxpayers helping contribute to Tampa International Airport when we've got a perfectly good thing going on Davis Island?

Originally Posted by chi_tino

I didn't see any numbers coming from you.

You're right, in the comment you're replying to, I didn't need any numbers to reject pointless, boneheaded bluster.