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Old 10-08-2016, 01:31 PM
 
12,592 posts, read 8,820,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
The problem is that learning the parts of speech and diagramming sentences do NOT really work to promote good speaking or writing skills.

The Wrong Way to Teach Grammar - The Atlantic
I certainly agree. Made me hate English more than any subject and probably kept me from learning more about it. The tedium of doing it over and over in combination of the subjectivity of the grading, in my opinion, does more harm to learning overall than good. While I was able to "do" English, it wasn't until my second semester college (taught by a grad student--oh the horror!) that I began to grasp the "why."


Something interesting. I once got to meet and talk with an old school grammarian. Found his views on grammar very refreshing compared to teachers. One of his statements was that most of the "rules" taught in school are wrong. That is the rules have been structured by educators to be easy to teach, not necessarily to teach the right.
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Old 10-10-2016, 01:17 PM
LLN
 
Location: Upstairs closet
5,265 posts, read 10,665,217 times
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[quote=North Beach Person;45627347]What you're describing is called tracking and has fallen out of favor over the last couple or three decades.
/QUOTE]

Don't disagree, but I thought your comment was interesting because the "decline of test scores and the US or A's place in the world education pecking order pretty much coincides.

Here is reality.

If I take a group of kids out for a hike in the unknown (this is a metaphor or something) and we all start out fine, but at some point, a kid twists his ankle, what am I to do? Do I keep up the same pace, and leave the kid behind? Do I pick up the pace and leave not only the kid, but the fat kids behind, too? Or do I slow down so the kid can keep up?

If you have to think much on this one, you should not be on the teaching forum.

The very same thing happens in 8th grade math, my only area of expertise.

I taught on a three person team for 12 years. Three homerooms. Some years we put the top math scores in one homeroom and they traveled together. The other two rooms were mixed. Some years, generally when we had a new teacher who was horrified at the prospect of "tracking" we mixed everybody up.

With out doubt and not even close, the years we had the best math students in one class, our team math grades went up. Across the board, not just in the upper class. Children could learn at a pace most comfortable to them, and in 8th grade math, with the proliferation of abstract concepts, this was essential for success

I am sure someone will come along and say "anecdote." I have found that is the word used when the facts don't fit the one's agenda. Fine.
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Old 10-10-2016, 03:30 PM
 
Location: A coal patch in Pennsyltucky
10,250 posts, read 10,499,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LLN View Post
Don't disagree, but I thought your comment was interesting because the "decline of test scores and the US or A's place in the world education pecking order pretty much coincides.

Here is reality.

If I take a group of kids out for a hike in the unknown (this is a metaphor or something) and we all start out fine, but at some point, a kid twists his ankle, what am I to do? Do I keep up the same pace, and leave the kid behind? Do I pick up the pace and leave not only the kid, but the fat kids behind, too? Or do I slow down so the kid can keep up?

If you have to think much on this one, you should not be on the teaching forum.

The very same thing happens in 8th grade math, my only area of expertise.

I taught on a three person team for 12 years. Three homerooms. Some years we put the top math scores in one homeroom and they traveled together. The other two rooms were mixed. Some years, generally when we had a new teacher who was horrified at the prospect of "tracking" we mixed everybody up.

With out doubt and not even close, the years we had the best math students in one class, our team math grades went up. Across the board, not just in the upper class. Children could learn at a pace most comfortable to them, and in 8th grade math, with the proliferation of abstract concepts, this was essential for success

I am sure someone will come along and say "anecdote." I have found that is the word used when the facts don't fit the one's agenda. Fine.
This doesn't surprise me at all based on how I learn personally and what I have observed with students. I have found that in some subject courses I have taken, I benefit from other students asking questions, and having the instructor explain it several times. In other courses I have taken, I find that I benefit from smarter students who are interested in learning as much as possible and who ask more intellectual questions.

What I have observed with students is most lower level students don't benefit from having smarter students in their class. They instead shut down and become frustrated because they are not "getting it" as quickly as some of the other students. The smarter students also tend to shut down because the pace slows and they get bored. It is a lose/lose situation.

Last edited by villageidiot1; 10-10-2016 at 04:06 PM..
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Old 10-10-2016, 04:00 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
44,891 posts, read 59,882,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
.......

What I have observed with students is most lower level students don't benefit from having smarter students in their class. They instead shut down and become frustrated because they are not "getting it" as quickly as some of the other students. The smarter students also tend to shut down since they get bored because the pace slows and they get bored. It is a lose/lose situation.
But at least everybody's equal. Ok, sarcasm off.

Getting rid of tracking was one of those "reforms" adopted over the last 30 years to address the various lower achieving student cohorts.

The idea was that the higher students, through some sort of osmosis (group work being one osmotic pathway) would help the lower students be smarter.

It hasn't worked and has degraded everyone's achievement.
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Old 10-11-2016, 01:06 AM
 
11,540 posts, read 12,565,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
This doesn't surprise me at all based on how I learn personally and what I have observed with students. I have found that in some subject courses I have taken, I benefit from other students asking questions, and having the instructor explain it several times. In other courses I have taken, I find that I benefit from smarter students who are interested in learning as much as possible and who ask more intellectual questions.

What I have observed with students is most lower level students don't benefit from having smarter students in their class. They instead shut down and become frustrated because they are not "getting it" as quickly as some of the other students. The smarter students also tend to shut down because the pace slows and they get bored. It is a lose/lose situation.
As someone who has taught the bottom of the bottom, I disagree. You end up having a class of sweathogs. You need some kids that will push the bottom kids up a little. They don't have to be the top overachieving kids, but kids who behave appropriately most of the time, function on task, and participate in discussions. Having a class discussion with kids who have no critical thinking skills or how to engage makes a very silent or off-task classroom.
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Old 10-11-2016, 09:43 PM
 
12,592 posts, read 8,820,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coney View Post
As someone who has taught the bottom of the bottom, I disagree. You end up having a class of sweathogs. You need some kids that will push the bottom kids up a little. They don't have to be the top overachieving kids, but kids who behave appropriately most of the time, function on task, and participate in discussions. Having a class discussion with kids who have no critical thinking skills or how to engage makes a very silent or off-task classroom.
Why do you "need some kids that will push the bottom kids up?" And how do you expect them to do so? Which kids do you sacrifice? Because that's the real impact. Someone on top get's sacrificed for no gain at the bottom.
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Old 10-11-2016, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,159 posts, read 23,808,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coney View Post
As someone who has taught the bottom of the bottom, I disagree. You end up having a class of sweathogs. You need some kids that will push the bottom kids up a little. They don't have to be the top overachieving kids, but kids who behave appropriately most of the time, function on task, and participate in discussions. Having a class discussion with kids who have no critical thinking skills or how to engage makes a very silent or off-task classroom.
The part of your comment I bolded reminded me of something that happened to me in my teaching years. Usually my classes were 24-28 students. But due to an odd schedule, one year I had one average class of just 12 kids. I thought how wonderful it was going to be when we would discuss science labs! It wasn't. It was almost impossible to get a good discussion going.
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Old 10-11-2016, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,159 posts, read 23,808,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Why do you "need some kids that will push the bottom kids up?" And how do you expect them to do so? Which kids do you sacrifice? Because that's the real impact. Someone on top get's sacrificed for no gain at the bottom.
I think you're more in line with my thinking, but I do think that some kids will -- at least to some extent -- "rise of the occasion" (for wont of a better cliche).
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Old 10-12-2016, 07:39 PM
LLN
 
Location: Upstairs closet
5,265 posts, read 10,665,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I think you're more in line with my thinking, but I do think that some kids will -- at least to some extent -- "rise of the occasion" (for wont of a better cliche).
Maybe it depends on the grade level.

That dog dont hunt in the 8th grade. Just not cool.
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Old 10-12-2016, 07:45 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
44,891 posts, read 59,882,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
The part of your comment I bolded reminded me of something that happened to me in my teaching years. Usually my classes were 24-28 students. But due to an odd schedule, one year I had one average class of just 12 kids. I thought how wonderful it was going to be when we would discuss science labs! It wasn't. It was almost impossible to get a good discussion going.
I always found that I needed around 16 to 18 kids to have a class gel. That low number only happened a handful of times over the years, most of my classes were in the 30s to the low 40s. Which is also a problem.

One year around 80 kids or so signed up for AP Psych. Instead of having three sections of 25 or so there were two of 40.

The AP Eng Lit teacher had the same thing that year, he and I basically had the same kids.
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