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The discussion is about bathroom policies. I may be mistaken but I doubt that many women are looking at other women's genitals in the bathroom. Think about it, the last time you were in a bathroom stall, did you know for sure if the person in the next stall had a penis or vagina?
I agree that they are objecting to using a gender neutral facility, but they are also objecting to not being able to use the restroom of the sex that they identify with.
The discussion is about SCHOOL bathroom policies and inclusive in that will be similar locker room policies. In a SCHOOL if the student knows who is sitting in the next stall they know if that person has a penis or a vaginia. These are not strangers to one another. These are also not adults and they have enough trouble dealing with sexuality even when everything is meeting the stereotypical definition of normal. I personally couldn't care less who is in the bathroom with me as long as they aren't threatening, don't show me their private parts, and don't pee on the seat, and that goes for any gender, but we aren't discussing me, we are discussing kids.
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Might as well do this. Many boys will not use the urinals anyway and use the stalls instead. They also avoid standing next to someone at a urinal so only every other urinal gets used.
Once we do this, the only outstanding issue will be to have the partitions go from the floor to the ceiling because heaven forbid that someone tries to look under or over the partition.
The discussion is about SCHOOL bathroom policies and inclusive in that will be similar locker room policies. In a SCHOOL if the student knows who is sitting in the next stall they know if that person has a penis or a vaginia. These are not strangers to one another. These are also not adults and they have enough trouble dealing with sexuality even when everything is meeting the stereotypical definition of normal. I personally couldn't care less who is in the bathroom with me as long as they aren't threatening, don't show me their private parts, and don't pee on the seat, and that goes for any gender, but we aren't discussing me, we are discussing kids.
I think we all understand this discussion is about school bathroom policies.
The Supreme Court is set to hear oral arguments on March 28 in G.G. v. Gloucester County School Board, the case of a Gavin Grimm, transgender teenager from Virginia who sued his school board for the right to use the boys’ bathroom, a case that could shape how public schools across the country accommodate transgender students. The Court will likely decide this case by June. The Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in April 2016 that Mr. Grimm must be accommodated in the bathroom that matches his transgender identity.
We can debate this back and forth but SCOTUS will have the last word on this controversial issue. Much will depend on whether or not Neil Gorsuch is confirmed in time to hear this case.
Where have I said I wanted the kid (assuming MtF) to use the boy's room?
Gay students have the same body parts, so no.
But you said before it was about feelings, feelings of the student who wants to use he bathroom with someone of the same gender. If a transgirl is forced to use the boys room, many of the boys may feel she is NOT the same gender as they are, since as you know gender is not the same thing as biological sex. So are those big us now the ones just told to suck it up? Why don't their feelings matter?
And how come the students who are uncomfortable being naked with gay kids have no right to be comfortable? Why don't their feelings matter? Shoukdnt they be allowed to change or shower without being ogled?
And if they can't use the boys room, and they can't use the girls room, they are further ostracized into being forced into either own bathroom? Sounds like the coloreds only all over again.
Last edited by toobusytoday; 02-20-2017 at 01:51 PM..
But you said before it was about feelings, feelings of the student who wants to use he bathroom with someone of the same gender. If a transgirl is forced to use the boys room, many of the boys may feel she is NOT the same gender as they are, since as you know gender is not the same thing as biological sex. So are those big us now the ones just told to suck it up? Why don't their feelings matter?
And how come the students who are uncomfortable being naked with gay kids have no right to be comfortable? Why don't their feelings matter? Shoukdnt they be allowed to change or shower without being ogled?
And if they can't use the boys room, and they can't use the girls room, they are further ostracized into being forced into either own bathroom? Sounds like the coloreds only all over again.
But you said before it was about feelings, feelings of the student who wants to use he bathroom with someone of the same gender. If a transgirl is forced to use the boys room, many of the boys may feel she is NOT the same gender as they are, since as you know gender is not the same thing as biological sex. So are those big us now the ones just told to suck it up? Why don't their feelings matter?
And how come the students who are uncomfortable being naked with gay kids have no right to be comfortable? Why don't their feelings matter? Shoukdnt they be allowed to change or shower without being ogled?
And if they can't use the boys room, and they can't use the girls room, they are further ostracized into being forced into either own bathroom? Sounds like the coloreds only all over again.
Again, again, and again I have said a transgendered student should not be forced to use the bathroom of their birth. No child should be forced to use bathroom or locker room facilities in school with a person or people they believe to be a different gender. NO child. So this is not about forcing a transgendered girl (or boy) to use the boy's (girl's) room, it's about the appropriate solution to address everyone's needs. Needs, not wants.
Possible solutions from best to worst: (in this scenario TG is MtF transgendered student, BG is biological girl, BB is biological boy)
Every classroom has an attached single user, gender neutral, attached bathroom so this is a non-issue.
Student TG uses the girl's facilities as is and no one cares.
Student TG uses the girl's facilities along with all BGs and the facilities are satisfactorily modified to provide privacy for anyone who wants it.
Student TG uses the girl's facilities, along with most BGs, and the facilities may or may not be satisfactorily modified to provide enough privacy for almost all other students. The one or two BGs that still have issues are directed to use the single user facilities that were originally only designed for adults.
The school either already has or figures out how to provide more than one set of multi-user facilities. TG has access to all facilities with the exception of one bathroom and/locker room designated as an alternate facility for the BGs that object.
TG is given use of any and all single user, gender neutral facilities.
What is not on the list is forcing TG to use the boy's room.
Again, it is not comparable to "no colored allowed":
No colored allowed = the person in fact has no restroom to use.
Current transgendered debate = student feels they have no bathroom to use.
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When I post in bold red that is moderator action and, per the TOS, can only be discussed through Direct Message.
Again, again, and again I have said a transgendered student should not be forced to use the bathroom of their birth. No child should be forced to use bathroom or locker room facilities in school with a person or people they believe to be a different gender. NO child. So this is not about forcing a transgendered girl (or boy) to use the boy's (girl's) room, it's about the appropriate solution to address everyone's needs. Needs, not wants.
Possible solutions from best to worst: (in this scenario TG is MtF transgendered student, BG is biological girl, BB is biological boy)
Every classroom has an attached single user, gender neutral, attached bathroom so this is a non-issue.
Student TG uses the girl's facilities as is and no one cares.
Student TG uses the girl's facilities along with all BGs and the facilities are satisfactorily modified to provide privacy for anyone who wants it.
Student TG uses the girl's facilities, along with most BGs, and the facilities may or may not be satisfactorily modified to provide enough privacy for almost all other students. The one or two BGs that still have issues are directed to use the single user facilities that were originally only designed for adults.
The school either already has or figures out how to provide more than one set of multi-user facilities. TG has access to all facilities with the exception of one bathroom and/locker room designated as an alternate facility for the BGs that object.
TG is given use of any and all single user, gender neutral facilities.
What is not on the list is forcing TG to use the boy's room.
Again, it is not comparable to "no colored allowed":
No colored allowed = the person in fact has no restroom to use.
Current transgendered debate = student feels they have no bathroom to use.
Actually in many places they had "coloreds only" bathrooms. Your argument seems to be that as long as they have a bathroom it is fine. You are literally giving the separate but equal argument. Do you realize that?
Btw gender is NOT biological sex. It would transchild and cischild, not biological.
And weren't you complaining earlier in this thread about the cost associated with making separate showers? Now we have to have separate restrooms built into every classroom? And what do we do in the meantime?
Actually in many places they had "coloreds only" bathrooms. Your argument seems to be that as long as they have a bathroom it is fine. You are literally giving the separate but equal argument. Do you realize that?
You do not need to lecture me on how "colored" bathrooms worked - unlike you, I lived it. You are the one that keeps asserting the two are the same. They are not. You are throwing out false equivalencies and it is highly annoying to someone who has experienced it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714
Btw gender is NOT biological sex. It would transchild and cischild, not biological.
Good on you for being so much more precise and PC than I, however that changes absolutely nothing I have had to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714
And weren't you complaining earlier in this thread about the cost associated with making separate showers? Now we have to have separate restrooms built into every classroom? And what do we do in the meantime?
No, I was not, even though that is indeed one of the problems schools face in trying to figure out how to address this. First post in I said this would the ideal solution. I have said for years, long before this issue was even on anyone's radar, that I wish every classroom had an individual, single user, attached bathroom to address a number of classroom management issues that have nothing to with this subject.
That list was in order from best case solutions to less and less optimal. We do not live in a perfect world and sometimes what should had have worked best simply is not feasible. I want the emphasis to being on addressing needs first and wants second. Additionally, I want the same standard applied to all. I get that you only care whether or not the transgendered kid gets exactly what they want and to hell with anyone else, but I'm sorry, one student's wants should not supersede multiple students' needs.
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