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I don't think anyone (well, any reasonable human) expects the schools to cater to each individual need of each individual child. Even with a class size cap, seven hour class days would allow at best 20 minutes per child. (Even when we're humming along nicely, I need more than that.)
Generally, public school allows for an average education for average kids. There are, of course, flashes of brilliance and flashes of dreadfulness on the school's part. (One hopes the flashes of brilliance outweigh the other.) Educationally it's kind of like Olive Garden-- decent, filling, but overall not exceptional at either end.
The problem I see is if someone wants other-than-average for whatever reason (to beat a metaphor to death, maybe they have celiac disease or a milk allergy, or even just don't like Italian food). In that case, they may need to seek other options. Limiting those options (or telling them you'll be the one to decide if they require a gluten-free meal) is not a good way to ensure excellence, or even to get needs met.
Fortunately, that average education does hit some things for most students. Most of us are fairly average in many aspects.
And no, if there are problems, what they need is an IEP. I am required to accomodate students with an IEP. Now that doesn't mean tailoring education to them. It means making it easier for them to operate in a regular classroom. Things like allergies are accomodated. I have two chemistry labs and a demo that I can't run for the next three years because one student in the building has an allergy that must be accomodated so I will show them on video instead of doing them.
Fortunately, that average education does hit some things for most students. Most of us are fairly average in many aspects.
Yes, it is-- and yes, most are. (Which makes me wonder why you bring up an inability to "cater to" everyone, when that's not expected. Oh yeah, your strawman factory! I forgot.)
Cold comfort to those who are not, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
And no, if there are problems, what they need is an IEP. I am required to accomodate students with an IEP. Now that doesn't mean tailoring education to them. It means making it easier for them to operate in a regular classroom. Things like allergies are accomodated. I have two chemistry labs and a demo that I can't run for the next three years because one student in the building has an allergy that must be accomodated so I will show them on video instead of doing them.
Tell that to the parent whose child's teachers didn't even get a copy of the IEP until October.
An IEP is a piece of paper. Most, from what I've seen, are shockingly vague and badly written. I've also seen more than one with white out on the original (which is illegal), and school systems which rely on boilerplates for each diagnostic group (also technically illegal).
First you have to get the school and the LEA rep to agree that Junior needs one (which is not automatic even with a diagnosis in hand). Some schools insist on behavioral observation and Response to Intervention studies before an initial IEP meeting is scheduled. Then you have to request a meeting: these often are scheduled at one-hour intervals, stacked up like airplanes awaiting takeoff. Generally, this is insufficient time to address appropriately the issues at hand, so you have to schedule another. Then-- once you have paper in hand-- you have to get the teacher to follow it, which might happen if she gets a copy in time, or doesn't have five other kids with IEPs whose interventions conflict with you child's, or doesn't forget, or any of a dozen other problems. Because reality is, the schools know Mom & Dad probably can't afford an attorney or even an independent advocate, and won't file complaints or go to due process.
And don't even start with Least Restrictive Environment, or you may not stop me for days.
I'm assuming you're bright enough to schedule an alternate lab, unless you'd rather tell the kids "well, we could do this if it weren't for Fred's peanut allergy; instead we can only watch this movie". Because, yanno, that would violate Fred's FERPA rights, though plenty of teachers do it.
Tell that to the parent whose child's teachers didn't even get a copy of the IEP until October.
An IEP is a piece of paper. Most, from what I've seen, are shockingly vague and badly written. I've also seen more than one with white out on the original (which is illegal), and school systems which rely on boilerplates for each diagnostic group (also technically illegal).
First you have to get the school and the LEA rep to agree that Junior needs one (which is not automatic even with a diagnosis in hand). Some schools insist on behavioral observation and Response to Intervention studies before an initial IEP meeting is scheduled. Then you have to request a meeting: these often are scheduled at one-hour intervals, stacked up like airplanes awaiting takeoff. Generally, this is insufficient time to address appropriately the issues at hand, so you have to schedule another. Then-- once you have paper in hand-- you have to get the teacher to follow it, which might happen if she gets a copy in time, or doesn't have five other kids with IEPs whose interventions conflict with you child's, or doesn't forget, or any of a dozen other problems.
And don't even start with Least Restrictive Environment, or you may not stop me for days.
I'm assuming you're bright enough to schedule an alternate lab, unless you'd rather tell the kids "well, we could do this if it weren't for Fred's peanut allergy; instead we can only watch this movie". Because, yanno, that would violate Fred's FERPA rights, though plenty of teachers do it.
That's why parents are involved in the IEP. If they think it's vague and poorly written, they need to address that. If they don't have the sense to realize it's vague and poorly written, they probably don't have the sense to accomodate their child on their own either.
I get my IEP's before school starts. I'm required to meet with the parents for each child I have an IEP for. I'm also required to attend IEP meetings.
Are there slip ups? Sure, there are in any system but you don't declare the entire system bad because a mistake was made and the parents didn't even bother checking. We try but the last line of defense is the parent for a child with an IEP. I have to ask why mom didn't check to make sure the teacher had the IEP? As a parent, when dealing with a school that deals with hundreds of students with IEP's, you have to assume occaisional mistakes will be made. An email would have fixed this.
I think, overall, the system runs well here. I don't see IEP's not being delivered. The special ed teacher I work with meets with me, regularly, on my kids with accomodations. IMO, this is one of the better run areas of education. Probably because it's so heavily regulated.
Most parents don't speak the language of IEPs. Even many well-educated parents are overwhelmed by acronyms and jargon, and leave the meeting unclear about what was accomplished. Further, many IEP teams have a designated scribe who merely takes notes, and the actual document is written from those notes later. (This is why no parent should EVER go into an IEP meeting without a tape recorder.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
If they think it's vague and poorly written, they need to address that. If they don't have the sense to realize it's vague and poorly written, they probably don't have the sense to accomodate their child on their own either.
Your disdain for parents is pretty clear here, even if sopme passing lurker has miossed it lo these many other posts. I think it's a good thing you're fleeing the education world for your cubicle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Are there slip ups? Sure, there are in any system but you don't declare the entire system bad because a mistake was made and the parents didn't even bother checking. We try but the last line of defense is the parent for a child with an IEP. I have to ask why mom didn't check to make sure the teacher had the IEP? As a parent, when dealing with a school that deals with hundreds of students with IEP's, you have to assume occaisional mistakes will be made. An email would have fixed this.
Actually, it required the parent and her advocate standing in the office demanding to see the principal. Two emails swore "the IEPs were all placed in the teachers' mailboxes on XX/XX/2008".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I think, overall, the system runs well here. I don't see IEP's not being delivered. The special ed teacher I work with meets with me, regularly, on my kids with accomodations. IMO, this is one of the better run areas of education. Probably because it's so heavily regulated.
Well, it should be, I'll agree to that. If it is, gods help the kids in Gen Ed. No comment on requiring heavy regulation to ensure things are done properly.
According to several people in our county SpEd system, multiple exceptionalities don't exist, children who are not verbal are categorically cognitively delayed, and parents who ask questions about IEPs are helicopter moms.
In short, your allegedly perfect world is one end of the scenario. Our horrorshow is (one hopes) the other end. I expect most of the country lies in between, though I actually know of at least three other counties in this state which are worse.
Most parents don't speak the language of IEPs. Even many well-educated parents are overwhelmed by acronyms and jargon, and leave the meeting unclear about what was accomplished. Further, many IEP teams have a designated scribe who merely takes notes, and the actual document is written from those notes later. (This is why no parent should EVER go into an IEP meeting without a tape recorder.)
Your disdain for parents is pretty clear here, even if sopme passing lurker has miossed it lo these many other posts. I think it's a good thing you're fleeing the education world for your cubicle.
Actually, it required the parent and her advocate standing in the office demanding to see the principal. Two emails swore "the IEPs were all placed in the teachers' mailboxes on XX/XX/2008".
Well, it should be, I'll agree to that. If it is, gods help the kids in Gen Ed. No comment on requiring heavy regulation to ensure things are done properly.
According to several people in our county SpEd system, multiple exceptionalities don't exist, children who are not verbal are categorically cognitively delayed, and parents who ask questions about IEPs are helicopter moms.
In short, your allegedly perfect world is one end of the scenario. Our horrorshow is (one hopes) the other end. I expect most of the country lies in between, though I actually know of at least three other counties in this state which are worse.
If you, truely, have a horroshow, get a lawyer involved. These are entitlements not optional accomodations. They are a right and you can sue a school for not providing them. Which is why schools here take them seriously.
As to general ed, we don't usually make accomodations because these are the kids who don't need them. There is no need to accomodate a general ed child. They're expected to adopt to the classroom not the classroom to them. As it should be. One of the things I send my kids to public school to learn is that they should do the accomodating when they can. This world isn't all about them and doing things the way they'd like them done.
If you, truely, have a horroshow, get a lawyer involved. These are entitlements not optional accomodations. They are a right and you can sue a school for not providing them. Which is why schools here take them seriously.
Yes, dear, I'm fully aware of my legal rights. What you may not be aware of are the fees charged by a decent education attorney (it's a specialty, and an area most attorneys-- rightly-- won't touch because they don't have the background). I assure you, though, the local school boards are well aware, and are happy to drown a parent in details in hopes of making them give up when they run out of money. Ours has three attorneys on staff for that purpose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
As to general ed, we don't usually make accomodations because these are the kids who don't need them. There is no need to accomodate a general ed child. They're expected to adopt to the classroom not the classroom to them. As it should be. One of the things I send my kids to public school to learn is that they should do the accomodating when they can. This world isn't all about them and doing things the way they'd like them done.
To quote Dennis Kucinich, there's kind of a "duh" factor here. No one in this thread has asked the schools for gen ed accommodations.
As for learning that the world doesn't revolve around him or her...my children fortunately haven't required formal instruction in that. Maybe it's a twin thing.
Yes, dear, I'm fully aware of my legal rights. What you may not be aware of are the fees charged by a decent education attorney (it's a specialty, and an area most attorneys-- rightly-- won't touch because they don't have the background). I assure you, though, the local school boards are well aware, and are happy to drown a parent in details in hopes of making them give up when they run out of money. Ours has three attorneys on staff for that purpose.
To quote Dennis Kucinich, there's kind of a "duh" factor here. No one in this thread has asked the schools for gen ed accommodations.
As for learning that the world doesn't revolve around him or her...my children fortunately haven't required formal instruction in that. Maybe it's a twin thing.
Not buying what you're selling. You can sue for legal expenses. You can find an advocacy group that will take up your cause. Most likely, all you'll have to do is show up in the superintendents office with a lawyer. What school district wants that kind of negative press.
What doesn't work is wringing your hands and saying "Woe is me". Fix it. The law is on your side.
Sorry again. Tailoring education to a child or two in this case tells them the world should cater to them.
I'm one of those parents who would discuss it at conferences and such but never pushed it until the 8th grade. My daughter was complaining constantly and became bored w/ school. I put her in private, self-paced. She moved so fast then she started college at the age of 15.
Not buying what you're selling. You can sue for legal expenses.
You can sue for reimbursement for legal expenses. One doesn't jump straight into a lawsuit-- one hires an attorney, an advocate, or both, for the many steps (which I assure you a district with staff attorneys to hand will drag out to the limits of the law: ten days here, thirty there, ten more, then sixty working days at another point) prior to litigation. If the family hasn't the upfront cash, it's too bad for them, because education lawyers don't carry their caseload pro bono.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
You can find an advocacy group that will take up your cause. Most likely, all you'll have to do is show up in the superintendents office with a lawyer.
Ivory, do you have any idea how overwhelmed advocacy groups are? I do, because I'm involved in two, and actually have acted as an advocate on several occasions. Further, where is the parent from a small town to find an advocate (assuming she even has the stomach for suing people she has to interact with at church, at the bank, and at the market every week)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
What school district wants that kind of negative press.
What doesn't work is wringing your hands and saying "Woe is me". Fix it. The law is on your side.
Might want to stick to things you know about, Ivory. In this case, you're making it up as it goes along, and depending on the "goshers Mrs. Cleaver, everybody knows--" theory. Negative press is hardly unknown to a school system of any size.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Sorry again. Tailoring education to a child or two in this case tells them the world should cater to them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and all homeschoolers live in a box. You're really getting pretty silly with that same song and dance.
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