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Yeah, assertiveness is not a desired quality in a teacher. I've already figured that one out. I'm not sure they even want us making suggestions but, if we do, they just want us to state our case and go away.
No I wouldn't put this on a resume or even tell anyone in an interview. The only reason I'd go that high is the state is sending the wrong message. They are not pushing the kind of certs that schools actually hire. Either do something to encourage schools to hire the certs you want or quit pushing them.
If you ask the state, I have the right certs. If you ask the HR manager in your average district, I have the wrong certs. Unfortunately, prior to becomming a teacher and trying to find a job as one, I was getting my information from the state and the university. I didn't know any HR managers and the teachers I know all thought like I did that mine were the right certs. 8 or so years ago when the state first started talking about increasing requirements, they actually were but since they backed off on that, they're not. Yeah, I'd go pretty high to make sure this message is heard but it won't be to blow my own horn. It will be to make sure the next person doesn't end up where I am.
I'll go as high as I have to to get the job done but that's all I'm after. I just want it done.
You have made a great point and one that all perspective teachers need to realize. University professors and the university teacher training folks are often caught up in research and best practices and not the reality of what is actually taking place in schools. Even people in H.R. and Curriculum Ooffice are not on the same page with building level administrators. A principal is trying to build a master schedule with balance in class size etc etc etc etc. Often a generalist provides that flexibility much to the chagrin of those not having to meet that challenge. If the school has a schedule for someone to teach 3 sections of Chem and 2 of Bio what are they to do. Hire someone to teach 2 Bio out of certification or a general certification who is certified in both?
You have made a great point and one that all perspective teachers need to realize. University professors and the university teacher training folks are often caught up in research and best practices and not the reality of what is actually taking place in schools. Even people in H.R. and Curriculum Ooffice are not on the same page with building level administrators. A principal is trying to build a master schedule with balance in class size etc etc etc etc. Often a generalist provides that flexibility much to the chagrin of those not having to meet that challenge. If the school has a schedule for someone to teach 3 sections of Chem and 2 of Bio what are they to do. Hire someone to teach 2 Bio out of certification or a general certification who is certified in both?
I see the problem but the sad part is you don't end up with highly qualified teachers that way. You end up hiring people with minimal coursework in the subjects they're teaching. I don't blame the schools but I don't think we're doing the kids any favors. I think this has a lot to do with the misconceptions in science that just won't go away. How many people think that we have seasons on earth because the earth is closer to the sun in the summer than in the winter? Or that water swirls one way in the northern hemisphere and the opposite way in the southern hemisphere because of the coriolis effect? While it is the aim of any good teacher to have their students walk away having learned more than was taught, you're in trouble if the teacher doesn't know when what they are teaching is wrong.
There is this idea in teaching that you can teach anything just by learning it three weeks ahead of when you teach it. I'm not sure I agree with that.
I see the problem but the sad part is you don't end up with highly qualified teachers that way. You end up hiring people with minimal coursework in the subjects they're teaching. I don't blame the schools but I don't think we're doing the kids any favors. I think this has a lot to do with the misconceptions in science that just won't go away. How many people think that we have seasons on earth because the earth is closer to the sun in the summer than in the winter? Or that water swirls one way in the northern hemisphere and the opposite way in the southern hemisphere because of the coriolis effect? While it is the aim of any good teacher to have their students walk away having learned more than was taught, you're in trouble if the teacher doesn't know when what they are teaching is wrong.
There is this idea in teaching that you can teach anything just by learning it three weeks ahead of when you teach it. I'm not sure I agree with that.
I think what might be missing from this discussion is that you are coming in as the new kid in the department. The teacher with the least clout and the one most likely to get the schedule the higher in the pecking order teachers don't want. That is usually a split schedule and one calling for a generalist in order to have a certified teacher in each area. While you would be well qualified for the Chem part of the assignment, what about the students in the two sections of Biology? Wouldn't all of the students be best served with a certified teacher for both the Chem and Biology? Your best bet coming in new is for a vacancy that is designated pure Chemistry, probably AP in a school where no one there wants to teach it (fat chance). Until then you probably want the General Science certification, get a job and then move into a pure Chem schedule where you can use that certification. It take time and patience.
I think what might be missing from this discussion is that you are coming in as the new kid in the department. The teacher with the least clout and the one most likely to get the schedule the higher in the pecking order teachers don't want. That is usually a split schedule and one calling for a generalist in order to have a certified teacher in each area. While you would be well qualified for the Chem part of the assignment, what about the students in the two sections of Biology? Wouldn't all of the students be best served with a certified teacher for both the Chem and Biology? Your best bet coming in new is for a vacancy that is designated pure Chemistry, probably AP in a school where no one there wants to teach it (fat chance). Until then you probably want the General Science certification, get a job and then move into a pure Chem schedule where you can use that certification. It take time and patience.
Oh, I agree. That's at the heart of the problem. The limitations on what I can teach mean, if they hire me, teachers with more seniority don't get to choose the classes I can teach because I can't teach the others. Not that you'd want me teaching them, . I'm planning on going back to get the 12 credits in life science and 12 credits in earth science that I need to get a DI but 24 credits won't make me qualified to teach all science subjects in 6th - 12th grades by any means. It is, unfortunately, the only way I'll find a job teaching science.
I'll second fat chance on AP classes. Teachers want the higher level classes because you get the good students.
All of which leaves me with a worthless chemistry certification that only seems to make my math certification invisible. I never get called for science interviews because I don't have the flexibility of the DI and anyone who has interviewed me for math ends up telling me I'd be a great science teacher. I actually interviewed for a math position when I got the job I have now. A few weeks after I interviewed for the math slot and they hired someone else, their chemistry teacher quit and they called me rather than post the position.
The chemistry cert has to go. Or at least convert it to a chemistry minor. Since I can teach all math in grades 6-12, that's the cert I need to push.
Oh, I agree. That's at the heart of the problem. The limitations on what I can teach mean, if they hire me, teachers with more seniority don't get to choose the classes I can teach because I can't teach the others. Not that you'd want me teaching them, . I'm planning on going back to get the 12 credits in life science and 12 credits in earth science that I need to get a DI but 24 credits won't make me qualified to teach all science subjects in 6th - 12th grades by any means. It is, unfortunately, the only way I'll find a job teaching science.
I'll second fat chance on AP classes. Teachers want the higher level classes because you get the good students.
All of which leaves me with a worthless chemistry certification that only seems to make my math certification invisible. I never get called for science interviews because I don't have the flexibility of the DI and anyone who has interviewed me for math ends up telling me I'd be a great science teacher. I actually interviewed for a math position when I got the job I have now. A few weeks after I interviewed for the math slot and they hired someone else, their chemistry teacher quit and they called me rather than post the position.
The chemistry cert has to go. Or at least convert it to a chemistry minor. Since I can teach all math in grades 6-12, that's the cert I need to push.
I understand your problem and situation. Doing away with the certification isn't the solution. You need to find someone there who understands the process and can help prepare you for specific interviews and vacancies. There are ways to approach it in interviews which can enhance your credentials with the school.
I understand your problem and situation. Doing away with the certification isn't the solution. You need to find someone there who understands the process and can help prepare you for specific interviews and vacancies. There are ways to approach it in interviews which can enhance your credentials with the school.
Those vacancies are far and few between. Math vacancies are far more common. However, I have to make my resume look like a a math major's resume. That means getting chemistry off of it. Or, perhaps making it a minor. Fortunately, my chemistry credits are all transfer credits. If the university agreed to deleting about 60 chemistry credits they transferred in, I'd be left with the bare minimum for a minor. That may be the way to go, now that I think of it. Deleting the chem cert leaves me having to explain why I've been working as a chemistry teacher, but most people seem to be under the incorrect notion that charter schools hire uncertified teachers anyway so maybe they wouldn't ask.
The truth of the matter is, I don't really have a preference for chemistry over math. I like both. As a former engineer, my first language is math. I speak it best. I can teach math six different ways (but I wouldn't because that would just confuse a class) and I have more of a passion for math. Also because my math goes clear up to advanced engineering mathematics, I know where students are going which means I recognize which methods are of more value early on. My industrial experience means I understand which concepts are used in the real world (I can answer the question "What will I ever use this for?"). My science background also means I know which math concepts are coming back in chemistry and physics (Like ratios and dimensional analysis. My kids really struggle with these.) There are some very good reasons I should probably be a math teacher rather than a chemistry teacher (actually, my ideal would be to teach both.). My only real draw to chemistry over math is the demo's are cool and I thought I was filling a shortage (I have a need to be needed in what I do). I actually went out of my way to get the math major. I added 4 classes to my program to get the math cert (a lot when you only need 12 to finish the program). Originally, my plan was to teach math. I just can't get anyone to see a math teacher when they look at my resume because they can't see past a science teacher and seem to think the two are mutually exclusive.
What I know right now is I need to do something different than I'm doing now. This isn't working.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-06-2009 at 11:26 AM..
Those vacancies are far and few between. Math vacancies are far more common. However, I have to make my resume look like a a math major's resume. That means getting chemistry off of it. Or, perhaps making it a minor. Fortunately, my chemistry credits are all transfer credits. If the university agreed to deleting about 60 chemistry credits they transferred in, I'd be left with the bare minimum for a minor. That may be the way to go, now that I think of it. Deleting the chem cert leaves me having to explain why I've been working as a chemistry teacher, but most people seem to be under the incorrect notion that charter schools hire uncertified teachers anyway so maybe they wouldn't ask.
The truth of the matter is, I don't really have a preference for chemistry over math. I like both. As a former engineer, my first language is math. I speak it best. I can teach math six different ways (but I wouldn't because that would just confuse a class). Also because my math goes clear up to advanced engineering mathematics, I know where students are going which means I recognize which methods are of more value early on. My science background also means I know which math concepts are coming back in chemistry and physics (Like ratios and prep for dimensional analysis. My kids really struggle with these.) There are some very good reasons I should probably be a math teacher rather than a chemistry teacher (actually, my ideal would be to teach both). My only real draw to chemistry over math is the demo's are cool and I thought I was filling a shortage (I have a need to be needed in what I do).
Understand no assignment is forever and what you are assigned is for ONE YEAR it can and will change. You need to get your foot in the door and let the Principal know that as opportunity permits you want to eventually teach Math and that you are accepting the job because your first priority is children and that is the essence of what you do and the content is the vehicle. You are better at the Math vehicle but the essential thing is helping kids to master content and move forward as productive students on the path to becoming productive adults.
Understand no assignment is forever and what you are assigned is for ONE YEAR it can and will change. You need to get your foot in the door and let the Principal know that as opportunity permits you want to eventually teach Math and that you are accepting the job because your first priority is children and that is the essence of what you do and the content is the vehicle. You are better at the Math vehicle but the essential thing is helping kids to master content and move forward as productive students on the path to becoming productive adults.
Thanks for the advice. It's getting my foot in the door I'm finding difficult without a general science certificate. I'm hoping to use the math cert to do that. I'm thinking I'll take any math position I can find next year just to have a year of teaching math on my resume.
I'm really not worried about which subject I teach. I'm worried about which subject will land me a decent paying job. That's the one I teach. You're right that I can help students become productive adults teaching anything. I just can't make a living teaching chemistry. Hopefully, math will work. Unfortunately, the conversion of my degree to include a math major came very late in the summer. I'm not sure what good sending my resume out now will do but I need to start somewhere.
What I've done, for now, is simply listed only a major next to each university I attended and then listed all three certs with my teaching certificate. I'm hoping the reader will assume chemistry is a minor so that math looks like my strong suit. It actually is. It's just not coming across that way as things are.
Thanks for the advice. It's getting my foot in the door I'm finding difficult without a general science certificate. I'm hoping to use the math cert to do that. I'm thinking I'll take any math position I can find next year just to have a year of teaching math on my resume.
I'm really not worried about which subject I teach. I'm worried about which subject will land me a decent paying job. That's the one I teach. You're right that I can help students become productive adults teaching anything. I just can't make a living teaching chemistry. Hopefully, math will work. Unfortunately, the conversion of my degree to include a math major came very late in the summer. I'm not sure what good sending my resume out now will do but I need to start somewhere.
What I've done, for now, is simply listed only a major next to each university I attended and then listed all three certs with my teaching certificate. I'm hoping the reader will assume chemistry is a minor so that math looks like my strong suit. It actually is. It's just not coming across that way as things are. Also compare your demographic profile with what is plentiful amongst applicants and existing staff and wonder if a school really wants more of?
Thanks again for your advice.
Good luck and chill. You have a lot to offer and stay on the relaxed side as the people interviewing you are probably very skilled at assessing temperament. Be very careful buying into any negativity on the part of those you come into contact with. It can be contagious and if perceived by someone in the hiring process a killer.
An omission of education is not considered a lie.
Omitting employment is.
Last edited by virgode; 09-06-2009 at 08:20 PM..
Reason: typo
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. I'm planning on going back to get the 12 credits in life science and 12 credits in earth science that I need to get a DI but 24 credits won't make me qualified to teach all science subjects in 6th - 12th grades by any means. It is, unfortunately, the only way I'll find a job teaching science. 
