Tennessee's obsession with checking IDs/ Underage Drinking (Chattanooga: renting, neighborhood)

[EVAunit1981]

Originally Posted by CSD610

You do not have to be mature to do any of the things you listed, you only have to be the required chronological age or be fertile and sexually active.

Why should drinking be any different?

[andrea3821]

So this thread is actually not even about the laws in TN specifically but basically saying the entire country should lower the age to 18....

[Beat02]

There are enough people (of all ages) being morons while under the influence of alcohol to make an argument in favor of a lower drinking age null and void.

[BirdieBelle]

Originally Posted by andrea3821

So this thread is actually not even about the laws in TN specifically but basically saying the entire country should lower the age to 18....

No, it's not, and those who want to discuss it can start a thread in Politics and Other Controversies.

[BirdieBelle]

Originally Posted by EVAunit1981

Why should drinking be any different?

Are you seriously asking that??

[WoodlandsGamecock]

Originally Posted by Beat02

There are enough people (of all ages) being morons while under the influence of alcohol to make an argument in favor of a lower drinking age null and void.

OP here. My original point was not so much that the drinking age should be lowered to 18 (which I think it should, but that was not the point of my post). My point is that, while all 50 states enforce underage drinking laws one way or another, the state of Tennessee specifically seems to be waaaaaay too overzealous about its enforcement. It's fine to keep the drinking age at 21, but there is no need to ask a 70 year old man for his ID when he orders a Bud Light at a restaurant. There is no need to throw a bartender in jail for serving a minor. There is no need to require cash registers to not open until a birthdate is entered on the cash register. There is no need to shut down a bar for serving a minor, unless they have demonstrated a clear pattern of knowingly serving minors. There is no need to treat every adult over 21 as if they MIGHT be under the age of 21.

It's not the law I have a problem with, it's the over-zealous enforcement of the law by state officials, often at the expense of common sense. It's not the fault of the servers at all. It's the extreme enforcement by law enforcement/lawmakers/etc. As an analogy, I believe in enforcing speeding laws, but I don't support throwing speeders in prison and revoking their drivers license if they are doing 75 in a 60 mph zone (again, unless they have 10 other speeding tickets in the last year). In Tennessse, the punishments for restaurants and bartenders serving minors doesn't fit the severity of the crime. Just my opinion.

[BirdieBelle]

Originally Posted by WoodlandsGamecock

It's not the law I have a problem with, it's the over-zealous enforcement of the law by state officials, often at the expense of common sense. It's not the fault of the servers at all. It's the extreme enforcement by law enforcement/lawmakers/etc. As an analogy, I believe in enforcing speeding laws, but I don't support throwing speeders in prison and revoking their drivers license if they are doing 75 in a 60 mph zone (again, unless they have 10 other speeding tickets in the last year). In Tennessse, the punishments for restaurants and bartenders serving minors doesn't fit the severity of the crime. Just my opinion.

In my experience, common sense is not that common.

[expatCA]

Originally Posted by jchometeam

I believe the laws are great. Everyone should be checked no matter how old. I am pretty liberal on alcohol laws, I believe that alcohol should be allowed on college campuses, in any city sponsored events, etc. And I also think that the concept of a "dry county" is stupid and increases DUI. At the same time, I believe that underage drinking should be strictly enforced, and the hassle of making someone show their ID is well worth the benefit of reducing underage drinking.

With the number of brain dead alcoholics still driving, licensed or not, the more we can do to stop the accidents they cause DAILY is worth a little hassle. Unfortunately they have stupid friends who will buy it for them.

Drinking and driving is not just stupid it is criminal as the driver does not care that he might kill an innocent person, his obsession with booze is all that matters to him.

As one person once said there is a difference between and adult male and a Man (Ditto women). Those who drink and drive show they may be adult males, but definitely are not Men.

[expatCA]

Originally Posted by WoodlandsGamecock

It's not the law I have a problem with, it's the over-zealous enforcement of the law by state officials, often at the expense of common sense. It's not the fault of the servers at all. It's the extreme enforcement by law enforcement/lawmakers/etc. As an analogy, I believe in enforcing speeding laws, but I don't support throwing speeders in prison and revoking their drivers license if they are doing 75 in a 60 mph zone (again, unless they have 10 other speeding tickets in the last year). In Tennessse, the punishments for restaurants and bartenders serving minors doesn't fit the severity of the crime. Just my opinion.

Tell that to a friend of mine who had her car destroyed by a drunk driver who had no insurance. She only has her SS payments. He got virtually nothing in the way of punishment and no money to reimburse for her loss AND she could only afford Liability insurance. She lost her only means of transportation and he ... well still drinking. She could have been killed.

While that does not impact carding, it shows how necessary it is to have SEVERE laws for serving liquor and drinking while driving. Very SEVERE and MANDATORY would stop it. Would you drink and drive if the minimum fine was $50,000.00 and 5 years in jail with no parole?

[J&Em]

Originally Posted by WoodlandsGamecock

OP here. My original point was not so much that the drinking age should be lowered to 18 (which I think it should, but that was not the point of my post). My point is that, while all 50 states enforce underage drinking laws one way or another, the state of Tennessee specifically seems to be waaaaaay too overzealous about its enforcement. It's fine to keep the drinking age at 21, but there is no need to ask a 70 year old man for his ID when he orders a Bud Light at a restaurant. There is no need to throw a bartender in jail for serving a minor. There is no need to require cash registers to not open until a birthdate is entered on the cash register. There is no need to shut down a bar for serving a minor, unless they have demonstrated a clear pattern of knowingly serving minors. There is no need to treat every adult over 21 as if they MIGHT be under the age of 21.

It's not the law I have a problem with, it's the over-zealous enforcement of the law by state officials, often at the expense of common sense. It's not the fault of the servers at all. It's the extreme enforcement by law enforcement/lawmakers/etc. As an analogy, I believe in enforcing speeding laws, but I don't support throwing speeders in prison and revoking their drivers license if they are doing 75 in a 60 mph zone (again, unless they have 10 other speeding tickets in the last year). In Tennessse, the punishments for restaurants and bartenders serving minors doesn't fit the severity of the crime. Just my opinion.

I think you may want to try buying something as simple as beer in grocery stores in other states and then come back and tell us all how no one else does it but the overzealous Tennessee folks. In my previous post I mentioned that the first time I witnessed an elderly person being carded was in a supermarket in New York state, not Tennessee. I have since seen similar checks in at least 4 or 5 other states in the last decade and have talked about it with other friends now living in states like Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maine, Alaska, Ohio, California, Georgia and Texas and every one of them have seen the same thing in some form. Like most zero tolerance rules this is more to avoid lawsuits than it is about drinking age being 18 or 21. That topic belongs in another thread and is not related to Tennessee alone.

Unfortunately drunk driving is a big problem in some places and dry laws, zero tolerance laws and traffic stops all have sprung up as ways to stop it before the drunken individual kills someone. None of them work well enough and most impair the rights of others who are not drinking and are not part of the problem. Your very analogy of not throwing a person in prison for speeding points to a part of the issue of how to keep underage people from drinking. It requires judgement to figure out who contributed to a drunkard's wreck and how much blame they should have for contributing to that wreck. How can you write a law that makes exceptions for the rule and allow it to be enforceable? This speeder gets off, that one gets a mild wrist slap and this one gets thrown in jail based on what? How far above the speed limit? How often he has been caught? If he acts like he is sorry enough? An all or nothing rule makes it easy.... anyone speeding, period, gets a fine and a ticket that puts points on his license. Now apply the same to people that were "just a little tipsy" or "pretty inebriated" or "drunk as a skunk" and then also figure out how often they have been found in that condition. It becomes far easier to enforce with an all or nothing policy of "this much alcohol on a breathalyzer test means you are over the limit and in trouble. Contributing to the level of drunkenness carries punishment because drunkenness to the point of impairment is recognizable. Making punishments for someone who ignores it and serves additional alcohol is just making it easier for that person to say no... they have a vested interest in keeping the drunk from hurting others; their own well being. Now a bartender can say "You've had enough" and can say it because he can also say "I don't want to go to jail because you are drunk." whereas without the laws and rules from his employer he would be set for an argument with a patron who was paying him.

On the part of the owners of anyplace that serves or sells alcohol, it is far easier for an establishment, whether a pub, bar, restaurant, grocery store or party venue to have a set of zero tolerance rules like; everyone must show they are of legal age, no more than "x" drinks, stopping serving alcohol before a certain time, or whatever else they can come up with. Tennessee is no different than other states in trying to find a balance between those who wish to be free to drink at any time and any place and those who want to restrict it because they have religious issues, have lost someone to a drunk driver, want to protect children from bad choices and the so called "forbidden fruits" they aren't ready to deal with properly. Some of the laws here, as in other states are based on archaic beliefs dating back to prohibition and religion and others are more recent changes brought about by a national organization, MADD.