Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
There was an interesting side-by-side discussion of the proposal in (I think) Sunday's Chattanooga Times / Free Press. Unfortunately, I can't find a link to the articles on line, but they were in the Perspective section.
The arguments made by the "change the law" writer were mostly invalid. I was slightly leaning toward the "keep everything as is" side until I read his faulty arguments; now I'm fully on the "status quo" side. I also read the opposite opinion, but that was just icing on the cake.
How can this law lower costs to consumers AND increase state revenues, all while not increasing consumption? If you lower costs, that lowers the tax base, which lowers state revenues. The only way to make this up is to increase consumption. Invalid argument.
I used to live in Kansas City, MO, which allows alcohol sales in grocery stores. They also had "Blue Laws" at the time, not allowing alcohol sale for certain hours on Sunday, but that's not really part of this discussion. One thing I remember is a distinct LACK of small liquor stores, mainly because when I moved here I noticed how they were everywhere. The "change" article said that people needing specialty alcohol or high-end wine could still go to their neighborhood stores... except they can't because many of the specialty stores will be forced out of business because they lost most of the day-to-day sales to Walmart and Bi-Lo.
The "change" argument said that allowing grocery stores to sell wine would create jobs... which is stupid. A grocery store is a fixed size... if they suddenly start selling a new product, they have to make room for it by eliminating or reducing some other product. Their gross sales may go up a little, but not much. I personally don't see them hiring many new people for this. The same for convenience stores/gas stations. The owner may make more money, but there will still be one single person behind the counter. Contrast this with the thousands employed statewide by soon-to-be bankrupt mom-and-pop liquor stores.
The people who really benefit from this are large grocery store chains. See HERE for a list of the most popular chains in the Chattanooga area. I'm sure that Memphis, Knoxville, and Nashville's list would be similar. As an interesting homework assignment, compare these lists with the list of companies paying for the advertising campaign trying to get liquor into grocery stores. Walmart (including Sam's Club) is based in Arkansas. Bi-Lo is based in South Carolina. Publix is based in Florida. Costo is based in Washington state. The two liquor stores near my neighborhood are owned by people who live in the area. See the difference?
Do you REALLY think that the Waltons (relatives of Sam Walton, founder of Walmart, and probably the biggest winners if this change occurs) need even more money??? If you do, please visit THIS LINK to see how much money they make already.
That's neat. I don't shop at Walmart, Target, etc. Especially when buying alcohol. Kroger? Occasionally. But whatever.
I also don't buy cheap trashy beer/wine/liquor. I buy stuff that tastes good. I shop at places that have a good selection of good stuff.
Give me a legitimate reason why I should not be able to buy Yazoo Hop Project and Yazoo Sue in the same store?
And tell me why my local liquor store can't carry lower ABV options. I mean, all they sell is alcohol. Why can't they sell 6.0% ABV beer?
IT IS A STUPID LAW. THERE'S NO JUSTIFICATION TO IT.
People assign value to their leisure time. There is nothing to prevent a salaried person from working more hours or any person from getting a second job, or a third job. But most normal people don't because they put a high premium on their leisure time.
This premium on one hour of leisure time is likely more than their average hourly wage, else they would work more. When you deprive people of this leisure time without compensating them, you are in effect taxing them. Most employers understand this, so they pay people. Our state legislature doesn't, so they prefer just to rob people.
But it's actually worse than a tax because the state isn't collecting any revenue. It's just making people worse off.
So the state would be better off just taxing all wine sold in grocery stores an extra $2 and offering a buyout to liquor store clerks with that money. Even with the tax, people would still buy the wine at grocery stores for the same reason they are willing to pay more for gas during the commute home -- because it saves them time, which is valuable.
Of course, the arguments against wine in grocery stores could just as easily be extended to banning beer in grocery stores (which was the case in the past.) Of course most normal people would laugh at this idea because it is absurd. Yet they don't see the connection with wine. Weird.
It always amuses me when people suggest the purpose of government is maximize tax revenue, as opposed to the well-being of the electorate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yarddawg
Um, no. This only makes sense if you're making a liquor run when you should be working. Most people utilize time with which they would otherwise be surfing the internet or watching television. I'm self-employed, anytime is potential work time but there is only so much work to be done so unless I'm shorting my clients even I can't use the "opportunity cost" argument. And if you live 20 minutes from the liquor store why the heck would you go every week instead of stocking up? You can consider transportation costs but that's about it.
No, because now you're comparing real money with theoretical "opportunity cost" money. They aren't the same. Most people work jobs with fixed hours and pay rates. The opportunity cost doesn't exist for them but the tax would.
I get it, you want to be able to buy wine at the corner market. But your argument just doesn't make sense for most people. Personally I think they should just set a % alcohol content to determine what could be sold where and not worry about whether it's low alcohol wine, beer or diluted vodka. That would be logical. I don't expect logic from this issue. There are too many lobbyists involved and also a large voting block that will not back anything perceived as an expansion of the availability of alcohol. Package liquor passed in the county I live in by 7 votes about 15 years ago. If it were on the ballot today it would probably be defeated. Legislators from rural areas who support wine in grocery stores run a real risk of alienating their constituency.
People assign value to their leisure time. There is nothing to prevent a salaried person from working more hours or any person from getting a second job, or a third job. But most normal people don't because they put a high premium on their leisure time.
This premium on one hour of leisure time is likely more than their average hourly wage, else they would work more. When you deprive people of this leisure time without compensating them, you are in effect taxing them. Most employers understand this, so they pay people. Our state legislature doesn't, so they prefer just to rob people. ...
Lol at the idea of calculating the opportunity cost of missing an hour of playing Scrabble on POGO.
After reading the text of the bill I will say that it has a higher chance of passing than the previous versions. This legislation doesn't legalize the sale of wine in groceries. It allows local governments to hold referendums on legalizing wine in groceries. So it would add to Tennessee's crazy quilt of liquor laws where the legality of the sale of beer, package liquor and/or liquor by the drink changes at every county line and city limits. This makes it less politically perilous for representatives from conservative areas. Although a vote for it still won't be popular it's less likely to cost them the next election.
I also don't buy cheap trashy beer/wine/liquor. I buy stuff that tastes good. I shop at places that have a good selection of good stuff.
Give me a legitimate reason why I should not be able to buy Yazoo Hop Project and Yazoo Sue in the same store?
And tell me why my local liquor store can't carry lower ABV options. I mean, all they sell is alcohol. Why can't they sell 6.0% ABV beer?
I agree with this part of the proposed change. Stores that specialize in selling alcohol should be allowed to sell anything that contains alcohol, including beer. And maybe extend that to alcohol-related products such as non-alcoholic Margarita mix, salt, corkscrews, bottle openers, etc.
As for the value-of-time-tax argument, I disagree with most of the assumptions. I very much value my time. Long ago I realized that I'd rather spend a little money to pay someone to change my oil in 10 minutes (plus checking all other fluids and some other parts) while I'm out running errands than to "spend" the time required to stop at the auto parts store for the filter and oil, then spend an additional 30 minutes of valuable Saturday time actually changing it. I also realized long ago that the "single store stop saves time" argument just doesn't work for me. I can spend less time stopping at Dollar General, Ace hardware, Bi-Lo, and Walgreens (all are passed on the way home) to get a few items at each store than to drive several miles out of the way to Walmart (fighting bad traffic both ways), wander all over a massive warehouse trying to find stuff (with no employees around to answer questions), then standing in line for 30 minutes to check out. I may spend a few extra dollars, but the TIME saved is well worth it.
Using the same argument, I pass at least a half dozen liquor stores on my way home from work, but I live and work in Chattanooga. Maybe you live in an area where you would have to drive 20 minutes to a liquor store, but I'd bet that most Tennesseans pass within a small percentage of their daily commute of a liquor store every day (unless they live and work in a dry county, and this change will do nothing to help that). Anyway, you could say that I'd save time by picking up a bottle of wine at the Bi-Lo stop I might be making anyway, but only if I were picking up a bottle of standard Jack Daniel Black or Yellow Tail or [shutter] a "box" of cheap red. If I wanted to discuss the best wine to accompany a specific meal, I'd be out of luck. The guys in the grocery store would be clueless, and many of the liquor stores are now closed because they lost most of their "standard" liquor sales to the Waltons.
I just moved to Boston from Nashville and was expecting lax liquor laws.
Imagine my surprise when I found out that not only can you not buy wine in most groceries but you also cannot buy beer!
Massachusetts has some crazy rule where chain groceries (and most are chains) can only sell liquor at 2 or 3 of their locations...and good luck finding them!
That...that is insane. Who would have thought progressive Massachussetts, home of "brewer/patriot" Sam Adams, would be behind TN when it comes to beer distribution?
I agree with this part of the proposed change. Stores that specialize in selling alcohol should be allowed to sell anything that contains alcohol, including beer. And maybe extend that to alcohol-related products such as non-alcoholic Margarita mix, salt, corkscrews, bottle openers, etc.
As for the value-of-time-tax argument, I disagree with most of the assumptions. I very much value my time. Long ago I realized that I'd rather spend a little money to pay someone to change my oil in 10 minutes (plus checking all other fluids and some other parts) while I'm out running errands than to "spend" the time required to stop at the auto parts store for the filter and oil, then spend an additional 30 minutes of valuable Saturday time actually changing it. I also realized long ago that the "single store stop saves time" argument just doesn't work for me. I can spend less time stopping at Dollar General, Ace hardware, Bi-Lo, and Walgreens (all are passed on the way home) to get a few items at each store than to drive several miles out of the way to Walmart (fighting bad traffic both ways), wander all over a massive warehouse trying to find stuff (with no employees around to answer questions), then standing in line for 30 minutes to check out. I may spend a few extra dollars, but the TIME saved is well worth it.
Using the same argument, I pass at least a half dozen liquor stores on my way home from work, but I live and work in Chattanooga. Maybe you live in an area where you would have to drive 20 minutes to a liquor store, but I'd bet that most Tennesseans pass within a small percentage of their daily commute of a liquor store every day (unless they live and work in a dry county, and this change will do nothing to help that). Anyway, you could say that I'd save time by picking up a bottle of wine at the Bi-Lo stop I might be making anyway, but only if I were picking up a bottle of standard Jack Daniel Black or Yellow Tail or [shutter] a "box" of cheap red. If I wanted to discuss the best wine to accompany a specific meal, I'd be out of luck. The guys in the grocery store would be clueless, and many of the liquor stores are now closed because they lost most of their "standard" liquor sales to the Waltons.
I agree that to discuss wine you do need a GOOD wine store with knowledgeable employees. But just because you buy wine at a liquor store does not mean this is an option. On the other hand, I have bought some very good wine at grocery stores. I'm not sure what Bi-Lo is; but Fresh Market, Earth Fare, Publix and Kroger Marketplace in some states have excellent choices. Some of these stores will also have tastings where you can sample different varieties. Plus it is very convenient to buy wine to complement your food choices.
Just my two cents worth.
That...that is insane. Who would have thought progressive Massachussetts, home of "brewer/patriot" Sam Adams, would be behind TN when it comes to beer distribution?
I've tried to tell people this but there are preconceived notions on both sides, it seems.
Liquor laws in Mass were more strict than many other places for a very long time. When I moved away 16 years ago I was astounded that you could buy beer in a convenience store and on a Sunday no less! You could also buy into the wee morning hours! Wow! The laws were that you could buy beer, wine and liquor to about 11 p.m. but not on Sunday or any holidays. That could sometimes make for some very long weekends if you didn't plan ahead.
Massachusetts folk are from a puritanical lot and are far more straight-laced than most Southerners. Sorry, but it's true.
I just moved to Boston from Nashville and was expecting lax liquor laws.
Imagine my surprise when I found out that not only can you not buy wine in most groceries but you also cannot buy beer!
Massachusetts has some crazy rule where chain groceries (and most are chains) can only sell liquor at 2 or 3 of their locations...and good luck finding them!
Think of how sad I'm going to be when I have to move from California to this eff'ed up place......
Think of how sad I'm going to be when I have to move from California to this eff'ed up place......
Praying that it's legal to ship from Cal to TN.
Sadly, it is not legal. This entire subject is one that makes my blood boil. I am a native Tennessean that moved away and returned. I am living proof that it is perfectly ok to be able to buy wine at the grocery store and to be able to be a part of the wine of the month club. Geesh. Wake up Tennessee; it's 2012!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This entire subject is one that makes my blood boil. I am a native Tennessean that moved away and returned. I am living proof that it is perfectly ok to be able to buy wine at the grocery store and to be able to be a part of the wine of the month club. Geesh. Wake up Tennessee; it's 2012!
