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Oh lord, are we going to start the whole Texas being Southern, Southwestern or West again? LOL
Just when it seems it goes away, it comes back up. And naturally, I am going to dive right in the middle of it.
Texas as a whole is essentially a Southern state. Historically, culturally, politically, linguistically, and most other ways. The only way it isn't is if one believes "southeast" and "South" are synonymous. There are some who believe the epitome of the South is the romantic moonlight and magnolias image of Gone With the Wind and stack everything up by that comparassion (far as that goes, lots of East Texas fits it well).
Sure, there are parts of Texas (noteabley the trans-peco, far upper-panhandle and, today, goodly parts of south Texas) that don't "fit in" with the commonly considered classic image of what is often conjured up when considering the the term "Southern". And for sure, most of the topography is different from the forested southeast. But by and large, the whole phenomenon and fallacy of Texas being seperated from the generally considered South gained steam as a result of western movies and mass media rather than anything truly rooted in the said common history and culture.
Texas is "southwestern"...in the old sense of the term. Literally, the western frontier parts of the South. It share very little with New Mexico or Arizona. Much less with the Rocky Mountain states.
Arizona and New Mexico did not even become states until the 20th century. And even the "western territories" (now considered the "Mountain States of U.S. Census Bureau West) did not until after the War Between the States.
This was all long after Texas (a solid Confederate State) had become (which really, it had before too) the haven and frontier for displaced southeasterners to get a new start. The overwhelmingly dominant influence on Texas -- culture, attitudes, outlook, politics, history, etc -- came with it. Other impacts existed for sure, but the Southern influence -- generally anglo/black was far and away the major one.
On the other hand, the true western states were a mix of culture from South and East and Midwest. It is one of the reasons today that a "western accent" is really considered seperate. Whereas most spoken by Texas natives are classified as Southern American English. And expanding that, while the "western/plains" environment for sure had an impact on evolving the general lifestyle of southeastern settlers into something much different than that generally associated with the Old South, it was still radically different from that of the far West and northern plains Midwest.
Lastly (for now, yeah! LOL) the western states could not possibly have made an impact on Texas for two reasons. One, the country settled east to west. Texas was the furthest extention of definite Southern migration. Two, the culture of the true SW and West were the mix of all, and didn't backtrack east.
Ok. I am finished. Texas is TEXAS. No doubt. But Texas is basically Southern too. Let me add this passage from Gone To Texas; A History of the Lone Star State, by UT professor Randolph Campbell. In writing on the very real conflicts as concerned the Mexican War and the conflicts with the Indians along the western frontier, he solidly spoke of something much more important in Texas history:
"However, the more basic story of Texas during these years did not play out in the south or the west. Instead, the key to Texas then -- and in many respects ever since -- lay in its development as an essentially Southern state, a part of the South."
P.S. Gotta get this one in: The slogan "Empire State of the South" became adopted by Georgia. How many know that it first made its debut in 1858...and referred to Texas?
P.P.S -- Hugs to you Cathy, hon. We will ALWAYS disagree on this subject, but I luvs ya!
I was glad to see this line in a post from a Texan. My wife and I have argued about whether Texas is a Southern state or not. She considers herself a Southerner and calls Texas a Southern state. I, a native Georgian, tell her that I am the real Southerner, while she is a Southwesterner. I lump Texas in with Arizona and New Mexico.
LOL. I think you need to listen to your wife more, OZB!
Seriously though, this is something I can never understand. With all due respect, what is this "real Southerner" stuff? I know you are being a bit humorous and light- hearted about it, but if there is one thing that really annoys me (again, not personal at all!) it is when some from the generally considered "Deep South" states presume a right to define the South by that fact alone. Othewise, offer nothing else substantial in the realm of history, culture...and reasons.
I could understand it better IF the term "South" had originated in those areas. But it didnt In an historical sense, Georgia (or any Southern state east of the Mississippi) has no more claim to "South" than do those of the Cis-Mississippi.
Southeastern? Old South? Yes, for sure. But not an exclusive claim to "The South." Sorry, but Gone With the Wind isn't the standard. Cos I'll counter with that "Marse Robert" once said "None of brought greater honor to their state than have my Texans..."
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Actually, both Texas and Georgia have become so filled with Yankees that both states are losing their Southern qualities.
Oh lord, are we going to start the whole Texas being Southern, Southwestern or West again? LOL
Just when it seems it goes away, it comes back up. And naturally, I am going to dive right in the middle of it.
Texas is "southwestern"...in the old sense of the term. Literally, the western frontier parts of the South. It share very little with New Mexico or Arizona. Much less with the Rocky Mountain states.
Lastly (for now, yeah! LOL) the western states could not possibly have made an impact on Texas for two reasons. One, the country settled east to west. Texas was the furthest extention of definite Southern migration. Two, the culture of the true SW and West were the mix of all, and didn't backtrack east.
Ok. I am finished. Texas is TEXAS. No doubt. But Texas is basically Southern too. Let me add this passage from Gone To Texas; A History of the Lone Star State, by UT professor Randolph Campbell. In writing on the very real conflicts as concerned the Mexican War and the conflicts with the Indians along the western frontier, he solidly spoke of something much more important in Texas history:
"However, the more basic story of Texas during these years did not play out in the south or the west. Instead, the key to Texas then -- and in many respects ever since -- lay in its development as an essentially Southern state, a part of the South."
P.P.S -- Hugs to you Cathy, hon. We will ALWAYS disagree on this subject, but I luvs ya!
Hugs back at you, TR....LOL!! I knew you'd be around to this sooner or later.....hehehehehehehehe....
I just got Gone to Texas (Kindle Edition) and am reading it off and on. It should be interesting! Given its length, it will most likely bog down in places, just as T.R. Fehrenbach's Lone Star does.
Although places all over are becoming more alike as time passes, I had something of a culture shock the first time I went to East Texas in the 1970s. I thought I was in another state--it's so much like Louisiana!
You're just going to have to visit the Trans-Pecos and West Texas to see that it is worlds apart from East Texas...I don't know of any other way to put it, LOL!
And they complain that DFW has no mountains or beaches. We know it doesn't. We might like to have those things too but we are used to doing without them. Missing the beach and the mountains is fine. Saying Dallas sucks because it doesn't have them is stupid. We know it doesn't have them, but that does not mean that Dallas sucks.
I wonder why they didn't move to Houston in the first place?
I wonder why they didn't move to Houston in the first place?
Moving to Houston for the beaches is like moving to Canada to get away from the cold weather. Houston has beaches, but plainly put, they suck (especially for people used to nice beaches like in SoCal).
Hugs back at you, TR....LOL!! I knew you'd be around to this sooner or later.....hehehehehehehehe....
I just got Gone to Texas (Kindle Edition) and am reading it off and on. It should be interesting! Given its length, it will most likely bog down in places, just as T.R. Fehrenbach's Lone Star does.
Although places all over are becoming more alike as time passes, I had something of a culture shock the first time I went to East Texas in the 1970s. I thought I was in another state--it's so much like Louisiana!
Funny thing, we were out in East Texas (Caddo Lake/Jefferson area) a month or so back and visited that general store in Jonesville (the oldest extant in Texas, been operating since 1848) and they had a copy of Fehrenback's book. I intended to buy it, but got distracted with other displays and never did. I need to order it, as I have heard great reviews, but never read it myself!
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You're just going to have to visit the Trans-Pecos and West Texas to see that it is worlds apart from East Texas...I don't know of any other way to put it, LOL!
LOL Actually, I ALWAYS considered the trans-pecos area to be pure "Southwest" as in more bonded historically and culturally with New Mexico and Arizona than the South...and even the rest of Texas.
So far as the rest of West Texas goes, yes, I agree it is much different than East Texas in many, many, ways...especially topographically. And, unlike East Texas, it has no claim at all to being fairly considered part of the Old South, Deep South, or southeast. My real point on this part of the state (which I consider to begin west of a general Vernon/Abilene axis), is that having been settled overwhelmingly by pioneers from the eastern South, its basic history and culture was influenced primarily by those from the same. It is reflected in, among other things, the accent and speech, the dominance of Southern Baptist churches, Confederate memorials and counties named after Confederate figures, etc. Something not at all typical of the interior Southwest.
That is why I like that term "western South" (which corresponds roughly with what was considered the "Old Southwest.") That is, a unique sub-region of the larger South where much original Southern culture is blended generously with chacteristics and traits commonly thought of as "western" (cowboys, ranching, western-style dress, wide-open spaces, etc). This is differentiated from the southwest of New Mexico and Arizona in that very little about those states can be considered "Southern" at all.
Just to mention, I have at least some experience in west Texas, so I come by the opinions honestly, and not just book research! LOL (my late grandparents lived in Lubbock from 1960 onward, with a smattering of other relations in Levelland, Plainview, etc)
Here are a couple of "culture maps" that I always thought were very good:
I would agree with the second map more than the first, because the first dark blue covers far east Texas and extends so far west and north.
East Texas is so much like the deep south in so many ways--culturally and geographically--which is why it was the culture shock it was when I first visited it.
When I woke up one Thanksgiving at 2am.....and was in ET for the first time----I was just flabbergasted. I had left Lubbock after classes, parked my car at my parents' place in WT (230 miles later)....and Daddy drove us while I slept in the back seat.
I was shocked. I couldn't believe that I was still in Texas....LOL!!
And yet I, who was born and bred in East Texas (all the way back to ancestors who fought at San Jacinto to defend the land of their birth), found Louisiana to be a shock, and yet not Dallas, or Central Texas, or West Texas, which which the area I came from seemed to have much more in common.
Interesting the different perspectives. Is there a tiny part of East Texas that is like the South? Yep, there likely is, just like there's a much larger part that is like New Mexico/Arizona, and a part that is like Mexico, come to that. That tiny part does not override the other parts (never mind I thought, when I was a little girl, it would be cool to wear hoop skirts just like Scarlett O'Hara (and boots and carry a gun like Dale Evans), I knew that was a different time and place and I got over it ).
Location: The land of sugar... previously Houston and Austin
5,429 posts, read 14,841,754 times
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Originally Posted by LAnative10
Moving to Houston for the beaches is like moving to Canada to get away from the cold weather. Houston has beaches, but plainly put, they suck (especially for people used to nice beaches like in SoCal).
Houston has no beaches. Only some canals and boardwalk-type areas.
Galveston has beaches, and though not awesome, they don't suck either. This topic has gotten beyond old on city-data. If it's good enough for Coastal Living Magazine and tons of new development, than I think it's good enough for most who live in TX. //www.city-data.com/forum/houst...-pictures.html
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