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Old 02-06-2011, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,816 posts, read 40,053,845 times
Reputation: 24363

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Sheesh. No matter what the topic, someone is going to bring liberal/conservative into it these days. Couldn't we just talk about what's right and wrong, and leave the parties out of it?

Sometimes I think politics is just as addictive as crack, for some folks.
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Old 02-06-2011, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
18,509 posts, read 29,613,784 times
Reputation: 7667
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrigtht View Post
And telling a woman she cannot choose to have a baby or not? Or how about trying to force jesus down your throat and involve it with government affairs? And that the constitution has any remote thing to do with god? Why are we always meddling in other countries affairs to brink of wars that are fought?

yea that liberal way of doing things.....

Too bad that liberal way is the reason why your required to wear safety belts, kids wear helmets when playing football, regulating corporations from taking advantage of the consumer, racism and discrimination are not permitted, everyone has the right to vote(note just those "white" men), people do not have to work until they are 75, kids do not have to work in factories, for the most part we don't have poisons in our food and drinking water, I can keep going, but we know those liberal ways are just plain stupid right?
excellent points
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Old 02-06-2011, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,816 posts, read 40,053,845 times
Reputation: 24363
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptnRn View Post
I took all that into consideration when I wrote "It is unlikely anyone is going to sue unless it is seriously impacting their lives, and then the burden of proof is on them". Sure, lots of people want to sue for trivial stuff, but once they find out what it takes to do so they realize its often not worth the time, trouble and difficulties of doing so, in addition to the possible court costs if you loose. I assumed everyone was smart enough here that I didn't need to explain all of that.
First, whether the person or persons being sued win or not, they still have to pay the expenses and spend the time fighting the case. That's not trivial. And LOTS of people will do exactly what you say they won't, and will push for legislation to force their way of thinking onto everyone. It happens all the time - it's in the news almost every day. I laughed so hard because I thought everyone was smart enough here that I didn't need to explain all that.
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Old 02-06-2011, 10:38 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,905,509 times
Reputation: 5781
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrigtht View Post
And telling a woman she cannot choose to have a baby or not? Or how about trying to force jesus down your throat and involve it with government affairs? And that the constitution has any remote thing to do with god? Why are we always meddling in other countries affairs to brink of wars that are fought?

yea that liberal way of doing things.....

Too bad that liberal way is the reason why your required to wear safety belts, kids wear helmets when playing football, regulating corporations from taking advantage of the consumer, racism and discrimination are not permitted, everyone has the right to vote(note just those "white" men), people do not have to work until they are 75, kids do not have to work in factories, for the most part we don't have poisons in our food and drinking water, I can keep going, but we know those liberal ways are just plain stupid right?
*glancing at timer* Ok...I was wrong. It actually WAS a lot longer than I figured it would be before a post like this was written.
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Old 02-06-2011, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,816 posts, read 40,053,845 times
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TexasReb, do you think a study would show (or has shown, maybe there's been one) that this is as predictable as Godwin's Law? Except maybe more predictable and happens faster?

I'm talking about from both sides of the aisle, by the way.
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Old 02-06-2011, 11:07 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,905,509 times
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As with many C-D "Texas Regulars" you and I have been friends/allies on quite a few things...but I submit -- with all due respect -- you are missing the whole point on this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptnRn View Post
The City of Austin's enactment of the smoking ordinance was actually an exercise in democracy.
I don't know all that much about the Austin Ordinance per se, but from what I have read/heard -- and what TexasHorseLady says -- it took the predictable path. That is, the anti-smoking zealots (like most zealots) simply used the reasonable compromise as the stepping stone. Eventually, they show their true colors by ever far-reaching intrustions on private property rights and the choices of others.

In any event, "democracy" is not synonymous with "freedom." In fact, it can be the antithesis of it..as the Founding Fathers well knew when they included a Bill of Rights into the Constitution. Two quotes (not sure who first penned them, so this is paraphrased) went along the lines of that:

"Majority Rule only works when considering individual rights. Because you can't have five wolves and one sheep deciding on what to have for supper."

The other (also historically unatributable, but on the money) is that a pure democracy will eventually eat itself alive, because:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.

Quote:
The "very few bars and such" that you refer to included the majority of the live music venues in downtown Austin, around 200 establishments had chosen to allow smoking out of fear that they would loose their smoking customers.
Isn't that their decision to make? I am not trying to be a smarta$$, but oh god forbid that a business owner fear losing customers. After all, it is just their business and livlihood and means of providing for themselves and paying bills and all. What is that minor concern when stacked up against the self-defined "rights" of those who want it their way or no way and, more importantly, will pay no monetary price themselves?

Quote:
Forcing the majority of Austin's citizens to subject themselves to those smoke filled environments if they wanted to participate in the live music events in Austin wasn't fair or reasonable.
Forcing? Who is forcing anything? Is there antecedent/precedent ordinance that requires those who hate smoking to go into places that permit it? If you hate smoking, don't go into them. If you hate it bad enough to actually do something about it? Then start your own business which disallows smoking. It would be very profitiable, I would think...

As an aside here? This very thing is happening naturally. MOST places anymore disallow smoking sans any ordinance...simply because most people DO shun smoking these days...and didn't need a government mandate to realize it, or make that smart business decision. So in most ways, no ordinance needed, at any rate. But oh no, those that still do allow smoking (in some form or fashion) cannot be allowed to exist, according to the world vision of certain fanatics. The horror! Exterminate the Beasts!

Quote:
Enough Austin citizens were dissatisfied with this situation that they passed petitions and collected enough signatures from registered voters in the City of Austin to get this put on the ballot so all of Austin could participate in making this decision. The smoking ordinance ballot was passed by a significant majority of Austin voters.
Ok. Fair enough. Game, set, and match. Check and checkmate. These particular citizens of Austin won (likely thru a lot of fear and mis-information, but that is beside the point).

But, as THL also stated sucinctly, when the next round comes about and it is perfume or too much grease or whatever are their vices, then the precedent will have been set by their own abreviated understandings of freedoms and the natural evolution of such things. Sadly though, most never will. They will stand bewildered and stunned by their own short-sightedness...and never make the connection.

Last edited by TexasReb; 02-06-2011 at 11:31 AM..
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Old 02-06-2011, 11:10 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,905,509 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
TexasReb, do you think a study would show (or has shown, maybe there's been one) that this is as predictable as Godwin's Law? Except maybe more predictable and happens faster?

I'm talking about from both sides of the aisle, by the way.
LOL Well, you know as well as anyone my affinity for "studies", so maybe we should both check into that one!
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Old 02-06-2011, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Austin, TX
16,783 posts, read 43,749,315 times
Reputation: 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
*glancing at timer* Ok...I was wrong. It actually WAS a lot longer than I figured it would be before a post like this was written.
Note that it wasn't jjrigtht, the post you quoted that brought liberal vs. conservative into the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Houston3
I quit smoking 336 days ago, but it's none of my business what someone else does....

People need to stop telling others what they can and cannot do, but that's the liberal way, isn't it!!!!!

And that's my opinion...
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Old 02-06-2011, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Purgatory (A.K.A. Dallas, Texas)
5,010 posts, read 13,824,487 times
Reputation: 2450
So should people be able to walk around in public spraying pesticide in people's faces?
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Old 02-06-2011, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,816 posts, read 40,053,845 times
Reputation: 24363
There's a very huge difference, and you know it, getmeoutofhere. Using hyperbole like that doesn't strengthen your case.

No one, that I know of, sprays pesticide in their own face, nor derives pleasure from being sprayed with or spraying pesticide (beyond the joy in not having bugs).

Might as well compare driving a car, or eating peanut butter (because some people are deathly allergic to peanuts), or wearing perfume (because some people claim to be sensitive to it), or using certain laundry detergents (because some people react badly to them) or eating beans (because, you know, bad for the ozone layer) or a myriad of other similar things to spraying pesticide on people. Which, of course, if the rabid anti-smokers (to distinguish them from nonsmokers, of which I, by the way, as a reminder, am one) get their way, will happen sooner or later.
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