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They are just blocking T, but many other cars behind T. Three cars all fluctuating between 70-72 is virtually driving side by side. People nearing their exit can't move over because cars arent passing and then moving over. What you explained happens all the time. It's worst when it happens on four lane freeways (two each way). You can set the traffic flow in the slower right lanes and let people pass you to your left if they want. So easy.
But if no one was violating the speed limit, this would not be a problem, correct?
Just drive the speed limit. As you say, so easy.
You keep not answering the actual question but diverting. Is it that it's too painful to answer it, or perhaps so painful that you can't even see the question to answer it?
Mostly I find traffic in Austin is so bad it's pretty hard to speed. I also find the argument that just don't speed and there won't be a problem to be pretty poor. As someone who's been pulled over for driving too slow it's pretty apparent to me that speeding tickets aren't about speeding, it's about revenue and hoping to trip someone up on a more serious charge. Same thing with traffic cameras. Nothing to do with public safety. In fact studies show that by making the yellow light longer does more for safety than traffic cameras.
Let's ask the expert. Nighthawks11, if someone was going, not below the speed limit, but at or slightly above the speed limit (which is what we're talking about here, after all, not someone driving 20 mph below the speed limit when that's not the prevailing speed of traffic because of rush hour, weather, or accident), and someone came barreling along 10 or 15 miles over the limit and started tailgating them trying to make them speed or get out of the way (which is what these entitled folks generally do because, after all, they own the road and the rules don't apply to them), or weaving in and out of traffic trying to get ahead so that they can speed (which last I heard qualified as reckless driving), which one would be most likely to get a ticket, and why?
I also find the argument that just don't speed and there won't be a problem to be pretty poor.
Actually, if you do a wide scale survey, you'll find that almost all speeding tickets do go to people who are actually speeding. As matter of fact, surveys like that have been done many times, and that's generally what studies show to be true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfresca
As someone who's been pulled over for driving too slow it's pretty apparent to me that speeding tickets aren't about speeding, it's about revenue and hoping to trip someone up on a more serious charge.
That may be true in a few places, but by and large the revenues from traffic enforcement are more of a cost replacement than a cash cow. And in some areas, like in Hawai'i, local traffic tickets don't even feed back into local revenues, but that doesn't deter enforcement efforts one bit. Why? Because it is fundamentally about safety and efficiency of traffic flow that is a happy medium for all the different interest groups involved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfresca
Same thing with traffic cameras. Nothing to do with public safety. In fact studies show that by making the yellow light longer does more for safety than traffic cameras.
Let's ask the expert. Nighthawks11, if someone was going, not below the speed limit, but at or slightly above the speed limit (which is what we're talking about here, after all, not someone driving 20 mph below the speed limit when that's not the prevailing speed of traffic because of rush hour, weather, or accident), and someone came barreling along 10 or 15 miles over the limit and started tailgating them trying to make them speed or get out of the way (which is what these entitled folks generally do because, after all, they own the road and the rules don't apply to them), or weaving in and out of traffic trying to get ahead so that they can speed (which last I heard qualified as reckless driving), which one would be most likely to get a ticket, and why?
I'll say it again, slower traffic must yield to faster traffic. Those are in the books, too. You have people that are so entitled and want everyoje to drive their speed, so they don't move over. They will pass a car, and then match the cars speed that they just passed, and stop the traffic flow, this creating.....traffic. I don't even know why you assume the speeder will tailgate. As long as the car is passing, there will be no tailgating. It's only when people dont move over after passing that tailgating starts.
There is a computer simulation video showing the driving habits in the states versus the ones found in better driving countries in Europe. In America, drivers pick a lane and drive in it. Outside America, drivers stay to the right and only move over to pass. They also yield to faster traffic because they dont want a ticket and don't want to lose their license. This creates an efficient traffic flow and brings down traffic. In America, the two middle lanes may start clogging uo because two drivers are driving side by side, and the left lane may have a self righteous person on the phone, etc. In New jersey, there was a cop that turned his srens on and got the car who was left lane hogging to move to the right lane (thought they were being pulled over). The cop immediately goes back to the left lane and speeds off. That's what more cops should do. Get the person disrupting traffic flow and not the drivers driving with the natural flow.
It's long been proven that speeding is not what kills and that driver's habits (like not getting of their high horse and yielding to faster traffic) is what causes our traffic issues. But no, we should all blindly follow the car in front of us because they are safe since they are driving the speed limit (not true but people actually believe this). I don't understand why they can't just stay to the right. Speeders are going to speed regardless and your self righteous trip on the freeway isn't going to make them drive slow behind you. People wanna police so bad. Just be a nice and courteous citizen and move to the right. We all have places we need to go.
I'll say it again, slower traffic must yield to faster traffic. Those are in the books, too. You have people that are so entitled and want everyoje to drive their speed, so they don't move over. They will pass a car, and then match the cars speed that they just passed, and stop the traffic flow, this creating.....traffic. I don't even know why you assume the speeder will tailgate. As long as the car is passing, there will be no tailgating. It's only when people dont move over after passing that tailgating starts.
.
i definitely dislike people camped in the left lane, but the statement "slower traffic must yield to faster traffic" is patently false. You will not find it in any texas law or in the uniform vehicle code
if you are going slower than prevailing traffic then you need to move over. but if you are driving 80 when everyone else is driving 70, they do not need to move over.
Tailgating starts when someone with an overweening sense of entitlement decides that everyone MUST drive their preferred speed (even if it's significantly above the limit) or get out of the way. That's when weaving in and out of traffic starts, as well. Both are clear indicators of a Very Bad Driver, by the way.
From the Texas Transportation Code:
§ 545.062. FOLLOWING DISTANCE. (a) An operator shall, if following another vehicle, maintain an assured clear distance between the two vehicles so that, considering the speed of the vehicles, traffic, and the conditions of the highway, the operator can safely stop without colliding with the preceding vehicle or veering into another vehicle, object, or person on or near the highway.
This clearly puts the responsibility on the following driver to
maintain a safe distance and not tailgate. Thus, the following
driver, not the leading driver, is the cause of tailgating. Good
try at shifting your own responsibility onto others, though, Trae713.
Sec. 545.352. PRIMA FACIE SPEED LIMITS. (a) A speed in excess of the limits
established by Subsection (b) or under another provision of this subchapter
is prima facie evidence that the speed is not reasonable and prudent and
that THE SPEED IS UNLAWFUL.
This makes it clear that the speed limit is the speed limit and that
driving over the speed limit is unlawful even if you ARE a Very Special
Person To Whom The Law Should Not Apply. I bolded it, and I made the
last four words all caps, because apparently some aren't able to see them.
§ 545.363. MINIMUM SPEED REGULATIONS. (a) An operator may not drive so slowly as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law. (b) When the Texas Transportation Commission, the Texas Turnpike Authority, the commissioners court of a county, or the governing body of a municipality, within the jurisdiction of each, as applicable, as specified in Sections 545.353 to 545.357, determines from the results of an engineering and traffic investigation that slow speeds on a part of a highway consistently impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, the commission, authority, county commissioners court, or governing body may determine and declare a minimum speed limit on the highway. (c) If appropriate signs are erected giving notice of a minimum speed limit adopted under this section, an operator may not drive a vehicle more slowly than that limit except as necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law.
If driving below a minimum speed is dangerous, then this authorizes
the establishment of a minimum speed, with appropriate signage. I
haven't seen a minimum speed limit sign in donkey's years, but I'm
sure there are still some out there.
Sec. 545.051. DRIVING ON RIGHT SIDE OF ROADWAY.
(b) An operator of a vehicle on a roadway moving more slowly than the normal speed of other vehicles at the time and place under the existing conditions shall drive in the right-hand lane available for vehicles, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, unless the operator is:
(1) passing another vehicle; or
(2) preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
This is the section that is referred to when insisting that if you're not going as much over the speed limit as I want, too, damn it, you're supposed to move over! That's not what it says, though I'm absolutely sure that those using its name in vain think so. I've even found several instances of case law (mostly involving traffic stops that turned into drug stops) that indicate otherwise.
You will note that nowhere in it specifically, or taken in conjunction with the other statutes, does it say "the speed limit does not exist in the left lane and you don't have to obey it there" or "people driving the speed limit should drive in the right hand lane in case someone with the entitlement to ignore the speed limits wants to get by".
70 is the speed limit on most freeways, yes - or was, until it was raised to 75 very recently in some places. So if you're driving 70, or even 72, in a 70 mph zone, not really a problem. 60 mph is the speed limit (or was) on most FM and RR roads, in my experience (and I've driven a lot of them over the years). I don't know of any freeways where the speed limit is 60, come to think of it. Perhaps Nighthawk11 could enlighten me.
However, you've very carefully avoided answering the real questions that I asked - is it because they are so very painful to answer that you don't even see them? Let's try this once again:
a. The speed limit is 70 mph.
b. There is traffic in both or all three lanes driving 70/72 mph.
c. Someone (let's call them T) decides to drive 80, and comes up behind multiple vehicles in multiple lanes doing 70/72, so that T has to slow down.
d. Who is the actual initial cause of the problem? Is it
1) T, who is violating the speed limit and thus, when s/he comes up upon traffic going the speed limit, is violating the flow of traffic and must slow down or find a teeny spot to change lanes and go around the traffic going the speed limit; or is it
2) the drivers who are, in all lanes, driving at or just over the speed limit, creating a flow of traffic that is not in accord with what T thinks it should be?
Is that more clear?
Please don't drive side by side, it's the most annoying thing drivers can do. Especially if you're doing it next to a semi, it's just stupid then..
Watch for signs on Texas multi-lane highways that read "Left Lane For Passing Only." These signs let you know that the left lane on a divided highway is not a "fast" lane; it is a passing lane.
After you pass someone, move into the right lane once you've safely cleared the vehicle. Impeding the flow of traffic by continuing to drive in the left lane is punishable by a fine of up to $200.
i definitely dislike people camped in the left lane, but the statement "slower traffic must yield to faster traffic" is patently false. You will not find it in any texas law or in the uniform vehicle code
if you are going slower than prevailing traffic then you need to move over. but if you are driving 80 when everyone else is driving 70, they do not need to move over.
So, if a line of cars is driving 75, and someone is driving 70 parked in the left lane, they don't need to move over? Why can't they just move to the lane to their right that is pretty much going their speed? I don't know what's so hard about moving to the right. I drove in LA, and the left two lanes are like NASCAR. They have better driving habits out there and yield. Houston is similar, as well as Dallas (the larger urban areas are pretty much the same). Then, I drive through Austin, and someone drives 60 in the middle lanes.
People fluctuate between different speeds way too much (partly for the fear of a cop lurking over the hill, or distractions). Give me the speeder paying full attention over the speed limit driver that's disciplining kids, talking on the phone, putting on makeup, or old (with crappy driving skills). That is...unless the speed limit driver is in the right lane and not causing the river to try and flow around a rock. It's really not that big of a deal, for the most part, since there is usually always a way around, but a couple of times on my long commute, unnecessary clogs form from people doing this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady
Tailgating starts when someone with an overweening sense of entitlement decides that everyone MUST drive their preferred speed (even if it's significantly above the limit) or get out of the way. That's when weaving in and out of traffic starts, as well. Both are clear indicators of a Very Bad Driver, by the way.
From the Texas Transportation Code:
§ 545.062. FOLLOWING DISTANCE. (a) An operator shall, if following another vehicle, maintain an assured clear distance between the two vehicles so that, considering the speed of the vehicles, traffic, and the conditions of the highway, the operator can safely stop without colliding with the preceding vehicle or veering into another vehicle, object, or person on or near the highway.
This clearly puts the responsibility on the following driver to
maintain a safe distance and not tailgate. Thus, the following
driver, not the leading driver, is the cause of tailgating. Good
try at shifting your own responsibility onto others, though, Trae713.
Why are you assuming I tailgate? I only do this if there is literally no way out and the person is hogging the left lane with a line of cars behind me all trying to find a way out. If the car is passing (correctly), I'll leave about a car and a half distance between myself and the other driver. Usually, where I live (DFW), they move over, and then I pass, and then move over, etc. And yes, the leading driver CAN be the cause of tailgating. I've seen drivers brake for no reason, other than to scare the car behind them. Those are some of the self-righteous people I'm talking about. Or they speed up when you find a way around them, so they don't let you get in front of them (it might offend them I guess).
Quote:
Sec. 545.352. PRIMA FACIE SPEED LIMITS. (a) A speed in excess of the limits
established by Subsection (b) or under another provision of this subchapter
is prima facie evidence that the speed is not reasonable and prudent and
that THE SPEED IS UNLAWFUL.
This makes it clear that the speed limit is the speed limit and that
driving over the speed limit is unlawful even if you ARE a Very Special
Person To Whom The Law Should Not Apply. I bolded it, and I made the
last four words all caps, because apparently some aren't able to see them.
Why didn't you continue putting the rest of the law in the quote? Most speed limits in urban areas are 60 (at least in DFW and Houston), with a few 65MPH scattered, and a few 70MPH in DFW:
(b) Unless a special hazard exists that requires a slower speed for compliance with Section 545.351
(2) 70 miles per hour in daytime and 65 miles per hour in nighttime if the vehicle is a passenger car, motorcycle, passenger car or light truck towing a trailer bearing a vessel, as defined by Section 31.003, Parks and Wildlife Code, that is less than 26 feet in length, passenger car or light truck towing a trailer or semitrailer used primarily to transport a motorcycle, or passenger car or light truck towing a trailer or semitrailer designed and used primarily to transport dogs or livestock, on a highway numbered by this state or the United States outside an urban district, including a farm-to-market or ranch-to-market road;
So yes, they are established speed limits, but they already know that the flow is hovers around 70 (slightly below and above).
Quote:
(b), the following speeds are lawful: § 545.363. MINIMUM SPEED REGULATIONS. (a) An operator may not drive so slowly as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law. (b) When the Texas Transportation Commission, the Texas Turnpike Authority, the commissioners court of a county, or the governing body of a municipality, within the jurisdiction of each, as applicable, as specified in Sections 545.353 to 545.357, determines from the results of an engineering and traffic investigation that slow speeds on a part of a highway consistently impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, the commission, authority, county commissioners court, or governing body may determine and declare a minimum speed limit on the highway. (c) If appropriate signs are erected giving notice of a minimum speed limit adopted under this section, an operator may not drive a vehicle more slowly than that limit except as necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law.
If driving below a minimum speed is dangerous, then this authorizes
the establishment of a minimum speed, with appropriate signage. I
haven't seen a minimum speed limit sign in donkey's years, but I'm
sure there are still some out there.
Sec. 545.051. DRIVING ON RIGHT SIDE OF ROADWAY.
(b) An operator of a vehicle on a roadway moving more slowly than the normal speed of other vehicles at the time and place under the existing conditions shall drive in the right-hand lane available for vehicles, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, unless the operator is:
(1) passing another vehicle; or
(2) preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
This is the section that is referred to when insisting that if you're not going as much over the speed limit as I want, too, damn it, you're supposed to move over! That's not what it says, though I'm absolutely sure that those using its name in vain think so. I've even found several instances of case law (mostly involving traffic stops that turned into drug stops) that indicate otherwise.
You will note that nowhere in it specifically, or taken in conjunction with the other statutes, does it say "the speed limit does not exist in the left lane and you don't have to obey it there" or "people driving the speed limit should drive in the right hand lane in case someone with the entitlement to ignore the speed limits wants to get by".
What this says to me is, if you are not passing (point number one) then move back over the the right lanes. Because, you may be driving at 65 and passing the cars on the right two or three lanes, but in comes a pack behind you going 70+. Time for you (and also the car and the lane immediately to your right, unless they are passing), to move over. Most people around here are pretty good at leaving the left lane open. Partly because it's an unwritten rule and partly because the right lanes here are pushing 70 anyway, and that's the comfort speed. I just wish more drivers were like me and left the left two lanes open if they aren't passing anyone. I guess not every city can have drivers like out in LA.
Okay, a challenge. Those of you who think that the speed limit doesn't count if you don't want it to, please show me where in the Texas Transportation Code it says that the speed limit is suspended and under what conditions. Not your interpretation of something that you want to imply that the speed limit doesn't count for you or anyone else who wants to drive really really fast, vroom!, vroom!, but wording that says that the speed limit is suspended under X conditions.
Until you can do that, it doesn't matter what you do, two things are fact:
The speed limit is what it is, for you and for everyone, and when you drive faster than the limit, you are violating the law and doing something wrong.
The person who is driving at the speed limit in any lane is obeying the law and is not doing anything wrong. Dangerous, perhaps, and they shouldn't be doing it because there are plenty of people out there who never got the memo that they and their wannas aren't the center of the universe who are as a result quite dangerous on the roads and should be avoided and left to law enforcement to deal with, but not illegal, and not morally wrong. It's the people who whine because someone else won't violate the law or get out of their way so that they can who are in the wrong and the cause of the problem, and who are the actual initiating cause of the dangerous condition - if they weren't speeding, the dangerous condition would not exist in the first place.
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