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Traffic which would use other routs. This doesn't stop North Dallas residents from getting downtown. IDK why people keep using that lame excuse. 345 only has like one off ramp to downtown as it is.
People driving from Houston to locations that aren't downtown can take 5 extra min to go around.
This is the crux of the issue. In built-up areas like Downtown/Uptown, the infrastructure in and around that immediate area should first and foremost cater to residents living and working there. Next priority down are those living further away, but are commuting to Uptown/DT for work. Least priority are those that are trying to bypass Downtown/Uptown completely (e.g. McKinney to Houston travelers). Local and state leaders that have this order backwards should be voted out. Simple as that.
This is the crux of the issue. In built-up areas like Downtown/Uptown, the infrastructure in and around that immediate area should first and foremost cater to residents living and working there. Next priority down are those living further away, but are commuting to Uptown/DT for work. Least priority are those that are trying to bypass Downtown/Uptown completely (e.g. McKinney to Houston travelers). Local and state leaders that have this order backwards should be voted out. Simple as that.
Sure. But the lies are twofold.
First lie - it'll only take 3/4/5 extra minutes - rubbish and you know it, or maybe people on your side don't - either way.
Second lie - it'll only impact people from out of town so who cares......when it will massively impact locals.
Every time I take the part of I-35 E that runs parallel to 345 it's got heavy traffic on it. If 345 is torn down most of the traffic will move over to I-35 E, creating a bottleneck that will have a negative ripple effect. I understand the reasons why so many want to tear down 345 but the cars that drive on it won't magically disappear. They have to go somewhere and having them all go through downtown isn't going to happen.
With respect this is why so many people don't take you guys seriously.
1. It's State Thomas
2. It'd be more like 8 or 10 minutes in lite traffic, who knows in bad traffic
3. It wouldn't be just her it would be many thousands more so that 8 or 10 would become at least 20 or 30 in the long run.
4. You are also skipping likely environmental issues. Cars at highway speeds burn much less gas and produce much less CO2 per mile than in stop and go traffic.
I beg you take a map and look at it. One does not need to be a traffic expert to see that diverting many thousands of cars downtown would create extreme problems without very significant additional road work - how would all these new downtown travelers get onto 45? 30? How would people coming from the south get onto 75? WW etc.? To note just a couple of issues.
IMO all of this is why the guy from TXDOT (Vandegriff?) seems to think that burying it is the only option other than keep 345 as is.
And with all due respect this is where I think you are just being an alarmist.
1) A typo, but if that is your lead argument, ok.
2 and 3 )3 or 8 min, your daughter is not going to be driving 30 min from State Thomas to downtown. That just won't happen. People will take other routs if they don't want to go downtown. Some people might take Dart, but no way it becomes 30 min to get from State Thomas to downtown, thats just dishonest The area around the AAC isn't even THAT bad right after a game, Deep Ellum doesn't even get that slow on the weekend with drunk people walking in the streets...
Google maps says it's 40 min walk from Parliament to the Omni, and google maps seems to always assume you are walking in heels or crawling because it's very generous on ETA.
4) Whenever people pull the environmental issues on this stuff I really feel like they are reaching. Environmental issues is your daughter hopping on the highway to commute a mile to work. Thats the real environmental issue here, that fact that we have set up Dallas in such a way that that sentence makes sense.
Besides, who knows what this will look like in 5 years when whatever they decide to do is finished. More cars are becoming electric or hybrid. In fact the trucks are the likely to be the last to switch over: the same trucks I want to rout around downtown, not through it.
The point being, yeah, ok, maybe you will and maybe you will not see a slight increase in localized pollution in the short run, it's a pretty big stretch an I wouldn't build any argument around that.
I have looked at plenty of maps. I've also lived in the general area and used the highway in question frequently. I still use it fairly often. There are other options. I can take 35 south around the west side of downtown and get to 175 or 45 south. I can come north on 175 or 45 and go through the mix master and go up 35 or up to 75 that way. It can be done. If it increases travel times, so be it, Truckers not headed downtown 's GPS will send them up 635 or 12 instead of into downtown.
I'm not saying this as someone who will personally benefit from the additional revenue the city of Dallas will get from property taxes, and as someone who frequently uses 345, I'll see my drive times increase. It isn't like I don't have skin in the game on this one, but it will be well worth it.
It makes sense, and we have tons of evidence from similar projects that yes, indeed, most of the traffic is induced and most of it will go away. And no, you will not have 30 min drives from State Thomas to Downtown.
First lie - it'll only take 3/4/5 extra minutes - rubbish and you know it, or maybe people on your side don't - either way.
Second lie - it'll only impact people from out of town so who cares......when it will massively impact locals.
Those arn't lies at all: most of the time it will only take an extra 5 min. During rush hour it might take a few more min, which would be enough to divert traffic that doesn't need to go downtown away from it, which is good.
No one said it will only impact people from out of town, but that seems to be the primary care of the TXDot wonks. It's a state agency, that is how these inner city routs got built in the first place, at great cost the locals.
Our issue is when the primary focus of impact is to people who are driving though the area, not the area itself. That is where the priorities are off.
Yes, of course this will impact locals, and for the most part it will impact them in a positive way. Not changing it also impacts locals because of lost potential tax revenue.
Every time I take the part of I-35 E that runs parallel to 345 it's got heavy traffic on it. If 345 is torn down most of the traffic will move over to I-35 E, creating a bottleneck that will have a negative ripple effect. I understand the reasons why so many want to tear down 345 but the cars that drive on it won't magically disappear. They have to go somewhere and having them all go through downtown isn't going to happen.
Not all of them, but a large number of them will. It happens every time something like this happens, even in places like NYC. People will change their plans, methods of transit, times of transit etc. They always do. Thats how it works.
Forcing them to go through downtown is the point. If they arn't trying to actually go downtown they will take a different way. Thats great!
Every time I take the part of I-35 E that runs parallel to 345 it's got heavy traffic on it. If 345 is torn down most of the traffic will move over to I-35 E, creating a bottleneck that will have a negative ripple effect. I understand the reasons why so many want to tear down 345 but the cars that drive on it won't magically disappear. They have to go somewhere and having them all go through downtown isn't going to happen.
345 torn down without massive countervailing adjustments, and not just tweaking a few surface streets, would be an unmitigated disaster for the entire DTD area.
Those arn't lies at all: most of the time it will only take an extra 5 min. During rush hour it might take a few more min, which would be enough to divert traffic that doesn't need to go downtown away from it, which is good.
No one said it will only impact people from out of town, but that seems to be the primary care of the TXDot wonks. It's a state agency, that is how these inner city routs got built in the first place, at great cost the locals.
Our issue is when the primary focus of impact is to people who are driving though the area, not the area itself. That is where the priorities are off.
Yes, of course this will impact locals, and for the most part it will impact them in a positive way. Not changing it also impacts locals because of lost potential tax revenue.
As stated most of that is raw fantasy. The whole whimsical thing that if DTD gets jammed up people will simply go elsewhere underscores why many don't take your side seriously. And it really sucks because you risk wrecking what could be a great thing.
And with all due respect this is where I think you are just being an alarmist.
1) A typo, but if that is your lead argument, ok.
2 and 3 )3 or 8 min, your daughter is not going to be driving 30 min from State Thomas to downtown. That just won't happen. People will take other routs if they don't want to go downtown. Some people might take Dart, but no way it becomes 30 min to get from State Thomas to downtown, thats just dishonest The area around the AAC isn't even THAT bad right after a game, Deep Ellum doesn't even get that slow on the weekend with drunk people walking in the streets...
Google maps says it's 40 min walk from Parliament to the Omni, and google maps seems to always assume you are walking in heels or crawling because it's very generous on ETA.
4) Whenever people pull the environmental issues on this stuff I really feel like they are reaching. Environmental issues is your daughter hopping on the highway to commute a mile to work. Thats the real environmental issue here, that fact that we have set up Dallas in such a way that that sentence makes sense.
Besides, who knows what this will look like in 5 years when whatever they decide to do is finished. More cars are becoming electric or hybrid. In fact the trucks are the likely to be the last to switch over: the same trucks I want to rout around downtown, not through it.
The point being, yeah, ok, maybe you will and maybe you will not see a slight increase in localized pollution in the short run, it's a pretty big stretch an I wouldn't build any argument around that.
I have looked at plenty of maps. I've also lived in the general area and used the highway in question frequently. I still use it fairly often. There are other options. I can take 35 south around the west side of downtown and get to 175 or 45 south. I can come north on 175 or 45 and go through the mix master and go up 35 or up to 75 that way. It can be done. If it increases travel times, so be it, Truckers not headed downtown 's GPS will send them up 635 or 12 instead of into downtown.
I'm not saying this as someone who will personally benefit from the additional revenue the city of Dallas will get from property taxes, and as someone who frequently uses 345, I'll see my drive times increase. It isn't like I don't have skin in the game on this one, but it will be well worth it.
It makes sense, and we have tons of evidence from similar projects that yes, indeed, most of the traffic is induced and most of it will go away. And no, you will not have 30 min drives from State Thomas to Downtown.
I'm not sure if you don't read what other people write or if you just like to move the goalposts....
1. The State Thomas thing was a joke.
2. I'm not talking about driving from State Thomas to DTD I'm talking about getting to areas south and east of DTD.
3. My daughter usually walks or rides a scooter to work. She volunteers at a place south of DTD, hence the regular driving. 50,000/80,000 or 100,000 local traffic cars looking for a workaround to 345 will generate enormous amounts of net new pollution if traffic isn't considered carefully.
4. Sure there are other viable options now. If the 50/80/100K cars per day are competing with your easy workarounds will be a distant memory.
5. I think 345 removal potentially makes sense. We do not have ton of evidence from similar projects. The induced traffic thing is folly, locals who use 345 to get to work will still have to go to work. No one said it would take 30 mins. from State Thomas to DTD.
As stated most of that is raw fantasy. The whole whimsical thing that if DTD gets jammed up people will simply go elsewhere underscores why many don't take your side seriously. And it really sucks because you risk wrecking what could be a great thing.
LOL yeah, I'm going to ruin this, because I make these decisions.
But yeah, the vast majority of people on 345 are not going downtown, they are through traffic. I mean that is what it is built for, as an elevated bypass right though the urban center.
Last edited by Treasurevalley92; 10-08-2018 at 10:22 PM..
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