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So basically, TexasReb wants African-Americans to thank Whites for having enslaved them and treated them like less than vermin. Even though the effects of this are still evident in society today.
While a much smaller community, African immigrants who were not the descendants of American slaves generally lead much better lives than other black Americans. They're typically wealthier and more educated. This suggests that the slave trade and segregation has had some lasting negative effects, and that blacks are better off if they had not descended from it, so there isn't much sense in the argument that blacks shouldn't be that upset about slavery since we're "okay" now.
C'mon, Nairobi...how long are "whites" supposed to pay the guilt for the existence of slavery. Personally, I am sick and tired of it and sick and tired of the "race card". Guess what? I don't give a damn. I might have at one time, but that time has passed. For gawds sakes, do you not realize how so many people are getting tired of this stuff?
To be honest, Nairobi, it is about time black people did something for themselves, because no one else is going to do it for them. But you know what? Seems like that so many listen more race-poverty folks like Jackson than true wise men like Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell....
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The north has their own faults, but, again, that doesn't make the south any less guilty. Historically, no other region in the country has been so unaccepting and inhumane to non-Christian non-whites than the South has. If you're able, let's just accept that fact without bringing up the "what about them" arguments.
Guilts ass, Nairobi. Let's be straight. Most of these "historicial guilt" topics come about from ignorant northerners who actaully believe their own self-righteous history, and the script goes that we Southerners are just supposed to swallow it and apologize for it and tell them we are -- yes indeed -- a bunch of backarse rednecks who never did anything other than lynching blacks and cooking grits....
Well? Screw them and screw that! I will take those self-righteous yankee nutballs to hell and back over that they have the upper-hand in that regard. They can not only kiss my Texas/Southern a$$, but do it with a wet kleenex.
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I do love the South, and I'm proud to be from here, but I feel there is an ugly part of this region that I'm not ashamed to acknowledge.
*smiles* Yes, I know you are a proud Southerner. You have proven that lots of times. And yep, we have our faults too. But gadamit, instead of wallowing in guilt over some of our past faults and taking shlit from northerners who dare call us on the carpet? Then by gawd, I say lets call them to account for their own faults before they DARE presume to call us to account for ours!
So basically, TexasReb wants African-Americans to thank Whites for having enslaved them and treated them like less than vermin. Even though the effects of this are still evident in society today.
First of all, that is an ethnocentric statement. It's a fallacy that Africa contributed nothing to society. Some of the biggest early advances in math and science were made in Africa. How do you think the pyramids got built?
I love the south and there's nowhere else I would rather be from. That's exactly why I insist on admitting the faults it has had in the past as well as some of its faults today.
But the fact that you refuse the admit that the south has done anything wrong institutionally regarding its treatment of African descendents in the past is astounding to me. Yeah, there's a whole lot of people in human history that have wronged others. But that doesn't make it right.
And I'm not gonna lie. It makes me angry that you just blow off the suffering that many African-Americans have had to go through in this country like it never happened. Angry every time I think of my grandfather, who put his life on the line in Korea, then came back to Killeen and was told he could have an apartment there because, "n!ggers don't stay in town".
Let me ask you one last question. What do you think of the Emmet Till situation?
I am suddenly also very interested in hearing the answer.
I am sick and tired of it and sick and tired of the "race card". Guess what? I don't give a damn. I might have at one time, but that time has passed. For gawds sakes, do you not realize how so many people are getting tired of this stuff?
Think about it for a second. Blacks were enslaved for 300, then legally segregated for another 100 years, yet everybody expects the negative effects of that are just going to magically go away in 40 years?
I don't think any black person in their right mind wants to be reliant or dependent. Malcolm X himself preached self-reliance. So I think you're right, we should be self-reliant. But historically, whenever there is a black coalition that is commited to that, white America instantly yells "reverse-racism" and blacklists them (The original Black Panther Party for Self Defense). So you have a catch-22.
But my main problem comes from when people tend to act like there should be no lingering effects from those centuries of marginalization. I also feel that many caucasians take a great deal for granted. It may not seem like much, but just the psychological effects of growing up black vs. growing up white in this country mean a whole lot. Can you imagine growing up and the only portrayals you have seen of caucasians on TV were negative and stereotypical? What about never really seeing a caucasian doctor, lawyer, or business owner? That's the way many African-Americans have had to grow up. Many caucasians can go weeks without ever really thinking about race. Historically, African-Americans are always in situations where they think about race.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not condemning you or any other caucasians who for the most part are nice, hardworking citizens. I'm just filling you in on a lot of truths about growing up African-American that a lot of people just wouldn't understand.
It's easy to say that everybody is tired of hearing about race. But how can you be tired when you've never truly had to confront it?
I have an honest question, Reb. Have you ever really sat down and had a long, meaningful conversation concerning race with someone that has a different viewpoint from you? How about studied African-American history in this country as well as the scociology and psychology behind the black experience? How about being surrounded by black families for a significant amount of time and seeing the way they grow up. I'm not saying you're a bad person if you haven't done these things. But if you haven't I don't think you have the right to say you're "tired" of this discussion or to make the generalizations that you do.
Last edited by UTHORNS96; 02-15-2013 at 07:21 AM..
First of all, that is an ethnocentric statement. It's a fallacy that Africa contributed nothing to society. Some of the biggest early advances in math and science were made in Africa. How do you think the pyramids got built?
Please. If you want to hear an ethnocentric statement, look at yours. You are correct on a few levels. But most serious historians do not give much credibility to that Afro-centric nonsense when taken out of application. The blunt fact is sub-Saharan Africa was pretty much a stone-age culture at the time other Africans sold some others into slavery. The worst consistent human rights violations in history were in that part of Africa. Hell, slavery still exists there.
I know this is not PC, but it is true. I can't re-write history and pretend something is what it wasn't and isn't. Why do you think so many blacks in neighboring countries came to South Africa back when it had the "aparteid" system? It was because they could make a better living and under better conditions than than existed in their own. Not all that much different from why Mexican illegals come to the U.S. today.
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I love the south and there's nowhere else I would rather be from. That's exactly why I insist on admitting the faults it has had in the past as well as some of its faults today.
I am sure you love the South just as much as I do. And I mean that sincerely. And where do you come by the notion I don't "admit" our region's "faults". If human beings live somewhere, then there will be faults. Hey, that is just a truism. The only thing I ever said (and am saying), is that I get gawdam tired of South-bashing and guilt wallowing on the part of those who seem to -- either out of ignorance or denial -- refuse to fess up to the existence of slavery and/or "racism" in their own parts of the country. Or the world for that matter!
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But the fact that you refuse the admit that the south has done anything wrong institutionally regarding its treatment of African descendents in the past is astounding to me. Yeah, there's a whole lot of people in human history that have wronged others. But that doesn't make it right.
See above. Where did I ever say that? What I have said and do say was that the only real difference in de-jure segregation in the South and de-facto in the North is that we were just less hypocritical about it.
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And I'm not gonna lie. It makes me angry that you just blow off the suffering that many African-Americans have had to go through in this country like it never happened. Angry every time I think of my grandfather, who put his life on the line in Korea, then came back to Killeen and was told he could have an apartment there because, "n!ggers don't stay in town".
I am not blowing it off, UTH. I am just not going to take the blame for it and I am not going to dwell on it. Things have changed. And I know many older whites who remember those Jim Crow days and speak of how wrong many things were back then.
But hey, how about the suffering of Southern women and children -- MY ancestors -- during Sherman's "total war", and the days of Radical Reconstruction? All of us have ancestors who suffered. But I don't blame northerners today for what their looters and pillagers did during the infamous March to the Sea. I think they have horrible accents, but I don't hold any bitter feelings for them as a people. LOL I am sure some white Southerners do, but I am not one of them. And can you say with honesty that some blacks don't hate whites and blame them for all of the dysfuctions of some segments of their communities? And for what reason do they?
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Let me ask you one last question. What do you think of the Emmet Till situation?
With all due respect, that is really a silly question. What the hell do you think I am going to say? That I applaud it? Geez....
Actually, I have some older distant kins and friends in Mississippi who remember that incident and said some of the officials in Mississippi wanted to see the killers put in the electric chair. And Emmit Till was hardly a model kid. Perhaps his blatant disregard for social customs of that day deserved a good butt-kicking, but NOT torture and death. That was horrific.
White Southerners, even in those days, were not animals. There was a certain social code that most of us today agree was wrong and has been corrected, but only the sociopaths amongst them roamed around looking to kill black people. Let me relate a story I bet most have never heard, but it can be easily researched.
I believe the black man's name was James Aaron, who lived in Alabama. He was what today would be called "intellectually disabled." He was somewhat of a "character" in his small town, but he spend some of his time building toys for kids and was just about the most harmless person that ever was.
Now then, a local chapter of the KKK, because several wanted to become the new ranking (whatever), had one member who said he would "prove himself" by being capable of....welll, I will just put it this way, it is potent man's worse nightmare. They just happened to pick Aaron.
After his torture and cutting, he was dumped along a county road, where he was found by a passing deputy sheriff. The Alabama press reacted violently against the coneheads and the community was outraged by this senseless crime. Those scum were given a court-appointed attorney who advised them to plead guilty and hope for a lenient sentence. They ignored the advise because they did not believe --in their obvious stupidity -- an all-white Deep South jury would convict them.
"You are wrong", they were told. Had you accused him of being an agitator or trouble-maker, you would have a chance. But what you did had no basis for it and if you plead not guilty, you will be found guilty and given the maximum sentence.
And that is exactly what happened. I believe it was 20 years for what the law called "Mayhem". They would probably have gotten more but that was the law of the day...
One last thing (gotta go do some work!), I do not ignore the many, many, things that African-Americans have done to make our Southland the South. The side-by-side hard work, the food culture, the music, etc. Good gosh, when stating my opinion that Texas is essentially a Southern state, lots of my reasons and research trace to the native black population that brought quite a bit to our state.
Please. If you want to hear an ethnocentric statement, look at yours. You are correct on a few levels. But most serious historians do not give much credibility to that Afro-centric nonsense when taken out of application. The blunt fact is sub-Saharan Africa was pretty much a stone-age culture at the time other Africans sold some others into slavery. The worst consistent human rights violations in history were in that part of Africa. Hell, slavery still exists there.
I know this is not PC, but it is true. I can't re-write history and pretend something is what it wasn't and isn't. Why do you think so many blacks in neighboring countries came to South Africa back when it had the "aparteid" system? It was because they could make a better living and under better conditions than than existed in their own. Not all that much different from why Mexican illegals come to the U.S. today.
I am sure you love the South just as much as I do. And I mean that sincerely. And where do you come by the notion I don't "admit" our region's "faults". If human beings live somewhere, then there will be faults. Hey, that is just a truism. The only thing I ever said (and am saying), is that I get gawdam tired of South-bashing and guilt wallowing on the part of those who seem to -- either out of ignorance or denial -- refuse to fess up to the existence of slavery and/or "racism" in their own parts of the country. Or the world for that matter!
See above. Where did I ever say that? What I have said and do say was that the only real difference in de-jure segregation in the South and de-facto in the North is that we were just less hypocritical about it.
I am not blowing it off, UTH. I am just not going to take the blame for it and I am not going to dwell on it. Things have changed. And I know many older whites who remember those Jim Crow days and speak of how wrong many things were back then.
But hey, how about the suffering of Southern women and children -- MY ancestors -- during Sherman's "total war", and the days of Radical Reconstruction? All of us have ancestors who suffered. But I don't blame northerners today for what their looters and pillagers did during the infamous March to the Sea. I think they have horrible accents, but I don't hold any bitter feelings for them as a people. LOL I am sure some white Southerners do, but I am not one of them. And can you say with honesty that some blacks don't hate whites and blame them for all of the dysfuctions of some segments of their communities? And for what reason do they?
With all due respect, that is really a silly question. What the hell do you think I am going to say? That I applaud it? Geez....
Actually, I have some older distant kins and friends in Mississippi who remember that incident and said some of the officials in Mississippi wanted to see the killers put in the electric chair. And Emmit Till was hardly a model kid. Perhaps his blatant disregard for social customs of that day deserved a good butt-kicking, but NOT torture and death. That was horrific.
White Southerners, even in those days, were not animals. There was a certain social code that most of us today agree was wrong and has been corrected, but only the sociopaths amongst them roamed around looking to kill black people. Let me relate a story I bet most have never heard, but it can be easily researched.
I believe the black man's name was James Aaron, who lived in Alabama. He was what today would be called "intellectually disabled." He was somewhat of a "character" in his small town, but he spend some of his time building toys for kids and was just about the most harmless person that ever was.
Now then, a local chapter of the KKK, because several wanted to become the new ranking (whatever), had one member who said he would "prove himself" by being capable of....welll, I will just put it this way, it is potent man's worse nightmare. They just happened to pick Aaron.
After his torture and cutting, he was dumped along a county road, where he was found by a passing deputy sheriff. The Alabama press reacted violently against the coneheads and the community was outraged by this senseless crime. Those scum were given a court-appointed attorney who advised them to plead guilty and hope for a lenient sentence. They ignored the advise because they did not believe --in their obvious stupidity -- an all-white Deep South jury would convict them.
"You are wrong", they were told. Had you accused him of being an agitator or trouble-maker, you would have a chance. But what you did had no basis for it and if you plead not guilty, you will be found guilty and given the maximum sentence.
And that is exactly what happened. I believe it was 20 years for what the law called "Mayhem". They would probably have gotten more but that was the law of the day...
One last thing (gotta go do some work!), I do not ignore the many, many, things that African-Americans have done to make our Southland the South. The side-by-side hard work, the food culture, the music, etc. Good gosh, when stating my opinion that Texas is essentially a Southern state, lots of my reasons and research trace to the native black population that brought quite a bit to our state.
The difference is that your ancestors were never PROPERTY.
I just won't stick around for any sugarcoating of the tragic events that southern leaders of the past allowed. So I'll just agree to disagree and be on my way.
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And where do you come by the notion I don't "admit" our region's "faults". If human beings live somewhere, then there will be faults. Hey, that is just a truism. The only thing I ever said (and am saying), is that I get gawdam tired of South-bashing and guilt wallowing on the part of those who seem to -- either out of ignorance or denial -- refuse to fess up to the existence of slavery and/or "racism" in their own parts of the country. Or the world for that matter! 
