Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Texas
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-17-2013, 12:29 PM
 
2,206 posts, read 4,723,117 times
Reputation: 2103

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Wow. This is the third thread I've seen on the subject (and the other two were not from the Texas forum).
Its the paid push trollers of the local democrat machine. I see this occur on all the forums not just this particular website. I am on some dem email groups and the emails come out and a few hours later, messages like this pop up on the many forums.

LOL.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-17-2013, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,958 posts, read 45,197,233 times
Reputation: 24737
Or, it could be that people on various forums find out about the issues via the emails, are concerned, and post about them on forums, WITHOUT being "paid push trollers".

Since I'm neither Democrat nor Republican, and politics is not the be all/end all of life for me, I'm not quite sure how that all works, but I can pretty much guarantee that if the Democrats have "paid push trollers" then the Republicans do, as well.

Here's an article on what Rick Perry decided was NOT important (or less important than the Merry Christmas bill) and vetoed. Hint: when one of your pet projects is under ethics investigation, vetoing funding for the agency that's doing that investigating and using as an excuse that you're in a snit about one person doesn't look too good. Whether you're a donkey or an elephant.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2013, 01:31 PM
 
8,275 posts, read 7,893,660 times
Reputation: 12122
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
Let's do a little test. Let's say that the schools start officially having Muslim prayers every day in school and at school-sponsored events and on school grounds because the majority of the people in the area that that that particular school serves are Muslim. You're going to be just fine with that, right? Because the minority should be required to experience, if not actively participate in, the religious practices of the dominant religion?
Who is talking about "religious practices"? This is exactly why people making this argument come off as crazed loons. No one is promoting prayers or religious activities. No one is calling for kids to take communion at school. If they were, I'd be with you in opposing it. All this legislation does is protect people want to exchange cultural greetings (Merry Christmas) from mentally unbalanced, miserable thought gestapo.

Again - Christmas is primarily a cultural holiday now. Atheists celebrate it, Jews celebrate it, etc. It's turned into an excuse for gift exchanges. Maybe we should stop wishing people a happy Independence Day. We know that there are immigrants in this country that hate the US whose feelings are probably hurt. There are also British expats here who, seeing July 4th fireworks displays, might have genetic memory panic attacks. There are also Muslims here that we are probably offending because our celebration of our Great Sataness is an affront to their religion. We are probably offending those people by our insensitive displays of national pride. It's probably best if we change that cultural practice too. Hell, the only holidays or cultural practices that should be allowed are the ones that are for minorities.

The assertion that the majority needs to purge itself of its cultural traditions in order to keep annoying minorities happy is exactly why conservatives say that liberalism is a mental disorder.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2013, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,958 posts, read 45,197,233 times
Reputation: 24737
Quote:
Originally Posted by War Beagle View Post
Who is talking about "religious practices"? This is exactly why people making this argument come off as crazed loons. No one is promoting prayers or religious activities. No one is calling for kids to take communion at school. If they were, I'd be with you in opposing it. All this legislation does is protect people want to exchange cultural greetings (Merry Christmas) from mentally unbalanced, miserable thought gestapo.

Again - Christmas is primarily a cultural holiday now. Atheists celebrate it, Jews celebrate it, etc. It's turned into an excuse for gift exchanges. Maybe we should stop wishing people a happy Independence Day. We know that there are immigrants in this country that hate the US whose feelings are probably hurt. There are also British expats here who, seeing July 4th fireworks displays, might have genetic memory panic attacks. There are also Muslims here that we are probably offending because our celebration of our Great Sataness is an affront to their religion. We are probably offending those people by our insensitive displays of national pride. It's probably best if we change that cultural practice too. Hell, the only holidays or cultural practices that should be allowed are the ones that are for minorities.

The assertion that the majority needs to purge itself of its cultural traditions in order to keep annoying minorities happy is exactly why conservatives say that liberalism is a mental disorder.
Since you chose to clip out a part of my post to quote, carefully leaving out the part that contradicts the bolded part of your post above, I'm pasting the entire thing in here again. Also, it's quicker than retyping the part that you either deliberately ignored (and hoped no one else had read) or were unable to comprehend on first reading. By the way, it's always been perfectly legal for students to say Merry Christmas to each other in school, just like it's been perfectly legal for them to pray in school. Now, if Rick Perry wants to veto laws on the basis of them being a replication of already existing laws, he should also have vetoed this one, I'd think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
You misspeak.

The goal was not for the minority group to be able to dictate the cultural practices of the 90%, it was for the 90% (or 76% or 51% NOT to be able to dictate the cultural practices of the minority. That's actually the goal of both the United States and of Texas, come to think of it.

And no one says that someone saying "Merry Christmas" is a secret code for anything. That's an attempt to obfuscate the issue, which is that someone representing the government (including teachers) may NOT, per the Constitution, promote the beliefs of one religion over those of all the others.

Let's do a little test. Let's say that the schools start officially having Muslim prayers every day in school and at school-sponsored events and on school grounds because the majority of the people in the area that that that particular school serves are Muslim. You're going to be just fine with that, right? Because the minority should be required to experience, if not actively participate in, the religious practices of the dominant religion?

We have a very good example of what that kind of thinking leads to, right in front of us, these days.
It's called the Taliban. Do we really want to go down that road in the name of Christianity? (Some did that in the past. It was called the Spanish Inquisition. Oh, and the Salem Witch Trials.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2013, 01:53 PM
 
Location: North Texas
24,561 posts, read 40,099,766 times
Reputation: 28547
Quote:
Originally Posted by War Beagle View Post
Again - Christmas is primarily a cultural holiday now. Atheists celebrate it, Jews celebrate it, etc.
Observant Jews do not celebrate Christmas. The ones who do are ones who married out, or who are only 'ethnically' Jewish, not 'religiously' Jewish.

My ex-husband was not Jewish and his family celebrated Christmas. I did not celebrate it, but I participated in it. To me they are two different things. I would never have done it if I had not been related to people who did, and it always seemed weird, foreign, and pointless to me. But I held my tongue, signed Christmas cards, exchanged gifts with people, and ate Christmas dinner in silent respect. One awesome thing about getting divorced was never having to go through that again.

Here in the US I don't know a single Jew who celebrates Christmas. Then again the only Jews I know are ones who actually go to temple regularly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2013, 03:13 PM
 
8,275 posts, read 7,893,660 times
Reputation: 12122
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDGeek View Post
Observant Jews do not celebrate Christmas. The ones who do are ones who married out, or who are only 'ethnically' Jewish, not 'religiously' Jewish.

My ex-husband was not Jewish and his family celebrated Christmas. I did not celebrate it, but I participated in it. To me they are two different things. I would never have done it if I had not been related to people who did, and it always seemed weird, foreign, and pointless to me. But I held my tongue, signed Christmas cards, exchanged gifts with people, and ate Christmas dinner in silent respect. One awesome thing about getting divorced was never having to go through that again.

Here in the US I don't know a single Jew who celebrates Christmas. Then again the only Jews I know are ones who actually go to temple regularly.
I shouldn't have implied that all Jews celebrate Christmas. Clearly, many do not. However, I have known several Reform Jews that did, but it was done more so that their kids didn't feel left out. Which kind of surprised me since I was always under the impression that was the purpose of Hannukah (it otherwise being a relatively unimportant Jewish holiday).

Obviously, that's anecdotal evidence and should be taken as such. But I still stand my my argument that Christmas is not primarily a religious holiday. It's quite possible that it never really was since fundamentalist Christian groups have, in the past, banned or discouraged its celebration (i.e. the Puritans). Aside from the Nativity scene, there are few aspects of Christmas that are overtly religious. Almost all are cultural (fat man in a red suit, Christmas tree, presents, etc.), which is why I don't understand why it's consistently such a fuss.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2013, 06:29 PM
 
Location: TX
6,486 posts, read 6,357,249 times
Reputation: 2628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Why would they? What could possibly make it unconstitutional?
The Establishment Clause reads,

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

According to the link you yourself provided,

"The Establishment Clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference by the U.S. government of one religion over another."

Since this bill doesn't come anywhere close to doing either of these things, I shall ask again,

What could possibly make this bill unconstitutional?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2013, 07:35 PM
 
Location: TX
6,486 posts, read 6,357,249 times
Reputation: 2628
Quote:
Originally Posted by War Beagle View Post
Aside from the Nativity scene, there are few aspects of Christmas that are overtly religious. Almost all are cultural (fat man in a red suit, Christmas tree, presents, etc.), which is why I don't understand why it's consistently such a fuss.
Well, a handful of the songs people sing at Christmastime are religious. I would be fine with these songs and the nativity scene being targeted by folks who feel they have a strong case against them. We must be fair. If it's religious, it does not belong in public schools (at least not put into place by the school/faculty). But I agree with you that the vast majority of the culture of Christmas is not religious by any means. It's the targeting of things like the very word "Christmas" or Christmas trees, etc. that bothers me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2013, 07:50 PM
 
8,275 posts, read 7,893,660 times
Reputation: 12122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Well, a handful of the songs people sing at Christmastime are religious. I would be fine with these songs and the nativity scene being targeted by folks who feel they have a strong case against them. We must be fair. If it's religious, it does not belong in public schools (at least not put into place by the school/faculty). But I agree with you that the vast majority of the culture of Christmas is not religious by any means. It's the targeting of things like the very word "Christmas" or Christmas trees, etc. that bothers me.
That is completely and utterly reasonable. I don't think kids should be forced to sing "Silent Night" or any of the other overtly religious carols in school, nor should there be a nativity scene. But the loons that think law suits and disciplinary action against employees who say things like "Merry Christmas" or who want to have a Christmas party with the secular trimmings are appropriate appear more than a little weird and miserable.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2013, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,958 posts, read 45,197,233 times
Reputation: 24737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Well, a handful of the songs people sing at Christmastime are religious. I would be fine with these songs and the nativity scene being targeted by folks who feel they have a strong case against them. We must be fair. If it's religious, it does not belong in public schools (at least not put into place by the school/faculty). But I agree with you that the vast majority of the culture of Christmas is not religious by any means. It's the targeting of things like the very word "Christmas" or Christmas trees, etc. that bothers me.
I have absolutely no problem with schools having parties during the Christmas/Hanukkah/Yule/Winter Festival Of Your Religion season. None at all. I think it's a grand idea, and the fact that winter festivals have been held by just about every religion out there shows that there's a need for such celebrations during that time of year.

I agree that religious songs and nativity scenes (or the equivalent of other religions) or anything signifying a specific religion is inappropriate.

I have no problem with trees, including decorated ones, given that they, too, are a symbol in many religions, including those predating Christianity.

Which brings us to the word Christmas. What is its meaning? Does it mean the celebration of the birth of Christ, or does it not? If it does, then it is the equivalent of religious songs and nativity scenes, is it not?

I don't make a huge fuss about it, actually, or didn't when my children were in school and it mattered most. But if one is to acknowledge that the trappings of one religion and only that religion do not belong in public government-run schools, does that mean all the trappings? On the other hand, this could be dealt with by having the trappings of ALL religions and ALL of their winter festivals celebrated in the schools. Is anyone here that supports the governor's bill (which, by the way, HE thinks from what he says is intended to push Christianity in our public schools) on board with that? Because I'd be perfectly happy with it, just as I'm already happy with children praying to their deity of choice before an exam or the Big Game or lunch or wishing each other Merry Christmas/Happy Hannukah/Blessed Yule/whatever.

Oh, and I think lawsuits over such things, as many others, are ridiculous and am an advocate for tort reform. For what that's worth in this discussion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Texas
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top