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And then there are scenarios when a person is not endangered but feels they are because the person is of another color or just looks wrong to them. Then they can pull out their gun and open fire for no reason other than paranoia.
Exactly!
When people envision "Stand Your Ground," they're probably imagining a situation where they're at home or in a dark alley and some imposing thug attempts to rob, rape or kill them.
The reality is that a person can feel threatened even when they shouldn't. I certainly understand the need for armed citizens. However, guns often encourage individuals to walk into easily avoidable situations. Instead of using street smarts, you become a cowboy because you have a trusty handgun to protect you.
Personally, if you feel that you need a gun, you should also learn a martial art. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, Muay Thai, western-style Boxing etc. People have this mistaken assumption that a bad guy will show up and they'll have plenty of time to grab their gun and get a good shot off. A thug is probably going to surprise you. What good is a gun if you can't bob & weave while landing a clean right hook? If someone with any fighting skill disarms you....you're toast.
Protecting yourself, your family and your property should not begin and end with guns.
Location: East Texas, with the Clan of the Cave Bear
3,266 posts, read 5,633,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterlemonjello
How would you know if a person is a criminal if you really want their to be open season on criminals? Just drive down the road and look for someone who looks like they may be up to no good?
Although the drive around sounds tempting I wouldn't do that unless carrying a LEO badge! Then that would involve the attempted capture. Too much work!
Read and comprehend ... I said "only on my property" and the use of "bait"!
Location: East Texas, with the Clan of the Cave Bear
3,266 posts, read 5,633,404 times
Reputation: 4763
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgn2013
Exactly!
When people envision "Stand Your Ground," they're probably imagining a situation where they're at home or in a dark alley and some imposing thug attempts to rob, rape or kill them.
The reality is that a person can feel threatened even when they shouldn't. I certainly understand the need for armed citizens. However, guns often encourage individuals to walk into easily avoidable situations. Instead of using street smarts, you become a cowboy because you have a trusty handgun to protect you.
Personally, if you feel that you need a gun, you should also learn a martial art. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, Muay Thai, western-style Boxing etc. People have this mistaken assumption that a bad guy will show up and they'll have plenty of time to grab their gun and get a good shot off. A thug is probably going to surprise you. What good is a gun if you can't bob & weave while landing a clean right hook? If someone with any fighting skill disarms you....you're toast.
Protecting yourself, your family and your property should not begin and end with guns.
There are very few cases of that (misunderstanding of the situation) and I would imagine that the VAST preponderance of cases would involve a clear cut case of self defense. All the antis on here are conjuring up wild scenarios, escaping common sense totally while there is minimal evidence to support their claims. The martial arts are potentially deadly in the hands of someone highly proficient ... so do you OK the taking of life with a choke hold or crushed trachea but not with a bullet??? And what about the elderly, frail, or just plain physically diminutive ... would they automatically be an overcomer with a high degree in their chosen fighting craft? I think you are grabbing at straws with such a weak argument. I think we should use WHATEVER advantage that is available to us. A firearm is a distinct advantage and with a little bit of situational awareness a surprise attack will almost never happen!
So if you are an anti self defense person that is fine with me. Again I will reiterate that the right to life and liberty (both of which "Stand Your Ground" provide) are the most basic of human rights ... agreed?
I am glad Texas is a common sense state when it comes to this type situation. Probably unknown to many here is that there are statutes on the books here in Texas that allow the use of deadly force against someone simply on your property if they have crossed a fenced boundary AND it is a time of darkness.
(Old anti-cattle rustling statute).
The question of WWJD is an interesting one. I think through some deep prayer one could get confirmation one way or the other. Old Testament thinking would most likely give one the green light while the NT definitely offers a yellow if not red light. One would have to get the mind of the Spirit on such a deep theological question. John 10:27 Whatever we think the answer is it is between God and that individual!
When people envision "Stand Your Ground," they're probably imagining a situation where they're at home or in a dark alley and some imposing thug attempts to rob, rape or kill them.
They are? What makes you say that? Actually, anyone thinking something so silly as that are the naïve ones...
Quote:
The reality is that a person can feel threatened even when they shouldn't.
Tell us all about this "reality" as you see it JGN. Unless you are in another's situation, then why do you take for granted your authority to make such a statement?
Quote:
I certainly understand the need for armed citizens. However, guns often encourage individuals to walk into easily avoidable situations. Instead of using street smarts, you become a cowboy because you have a trusty handgun to protect you.
They (we) do? Where do you come by that assertion? By what stats and/or personal experience are you confident with stating that law-abiding citizens with a handgun are more likely to "walk into easily avoidable situations"? As it is? Any person legally licensed to carry a concealed handgun would be a damn fool to go look for trouble. In fact, we are most likely to do everything possible to avoid it. On the other hand, the stats DO bear that out if a criterion is that CHL carriers have a noteably lower rate of committing violent crimes than the rest of the population? Then it blows it all away in terms of just which is more responsible and law-abiding.
But, hey, I am perfectly willing to listen to your argument such is not true. Go for it...
Quote:
Personally, if you feel that you need a gun, you should also learn a martial art. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, Muay Thai, western-style Boxing etc. People have this mistaken assumption that a bad guy will show up and they'll have plenty of time to grab their gun and get a good shot off. A thug is probably going to surprise you. What good is a gun if you can't bob & weave while landing a clean right hook? If someone with any fighting skill disarms you....you're toast.
LMAO. I just have to ask. How old are you? Have you ever fired a gun in your life? For that matter, have you ever been in a no-holds barred "street fight"? Whatever, do you not realize that many on this Texas forum are combat veterans, martial arts experts, and street-fighters who have seen and done it all? And that you are not telling anyone anything that we/they haven't already learned by experience?
*GRINS* Although I can't help but posting this old movie clip as to how them "martial arts" stack up....
Protecting yourself, your family and your property should not begin and end with guns.
And I agree. Who ever said it should? Do you have a family and kids? Nothing wrong with all kinds of security measures. So whoever said different? This is not exactly words of unique wisdom. To take one kind of precautions does not negate taking another...
No, actually, it wouldn't apply in that situation (if I read the law right). That is, the qualifier being that before the "Stand Your Ground" aspect could be relevant, then not only would the person have to be in a place s/he had the legal right to be, but also not engaged in any illegal activity. Thus, prostitution or drug deals gone wrong would not be applicable.
Illegal activity is mentioned in laws concerning protection of person; it is not mentioned in the laws concerning protection of property oddly enough. The guy walked because a theft at night occurred, and there was nothing in the law that said he would not be justified in the killing if he was engaging in an illegal activity.
Quote:
Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
In life, you do what you have to do. When they tell you that you can't do what you have to do, you give them a bow before proceeding to do that which you can't help but doing. So, you stand your ground like any animal would do and like the animal you are. If that is illegal, then you bury the body after shooting it.
First of all I'm not an animal that operates solely by instinct. I have in the past used words to get out of potentially harmful situations. Secondly not all animals stay their ground. Third I am certainly not carrying around a weapon at all times because that is unreasonable. If this is the point we have gotten to in this country I would just rather leave and move to one of the 103 countries with a lower homicide rate.
As for the laws I think too much of it has to do with perception of danger which is often very hard to prove either way.
I should be under no obligation to "retreat" when someone is threatening me. Does that mean that I will default to using deadly force? No. But I will if I need to.
And as for someone being on my property - no mercy. You don't want to get shot? Don't try to break into my house. It's really easy to avoid making me have to "stand my ground."
No personal offence intended, but the "What would Jesus Do?" argument only works if the person using it is totally willing to live the life He did and be willing to die the death He did. Otherwise, it is total deflection.
Jesus was the Son of God (to Christians), and thus, the Perfect Man. He lived his life perfect and his known destiny was to be crucified. He willingly went into a town where He knew ahead of time everyone there wanted to kill him. Now, THAT is guts and balls. Jesus was not some wimp.
Yes, He said "turn the other cheek". But he never said stand there and get beat to death!
Main point being, IF one is not willing to live and die the way Jesus did? Then the debate angle in the realm of self-defense as to "What would Jesus Do?" -- at least IMHO -- is nothing more than taking advantage of His name for the purpose of a temporary, self-considered, "point" in a debate.
But ok. Jerbear? And again, this is nothing personal at all... Can you honestly say you would be willing to be killed/maimed for life/kidnapped/raped/etc -- or one of your loved ones suffer the same fate? -- because you believe Jesus would have done it?
No, I'm not. I just think we should try to come as close to whatever we view as perfect (Christ or other) as possible. I was responding to a poster who avowed his own Christianity and then basically went in the exact opposite direction. I agree that perfection is impossible, but that is no reason to not get as close as you can. I would shoot someone who was threatening the life of my family, and maybe even someone who was threatening my own life but I would most surely not feel good or "justified" about it. It would still be absolutely terrible--not a "yee haw" boy moment or even a "protecting what's mine by golly" moment. (BTW, that is why I like the FX show Justified so much: because it questions the very idea of being justified for murder)
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