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Old 02-08-2014, 12:56 AM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,520,211 times
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Thanks for a great and very articulate explanation of your position. I enjoyed reading it (as if that makes any difference! LOL). But anyway, here is my reply...

Quote:
=Jack Lance;33367536]I absolutely agree that many hold more than one regional identity, and that is fine with me. I know that there is a sizable portion of Texas that would identify as Southern first and foremost.
This is really (bolded part) about the only thing I would take issue with. That is, I don't concur with that as in "sizeable portion of Texans" would pick a "Southern" identity over a "Texas" one. And this actually backs you up!..can you believe it? LOL .

But seriously, I naturally understand what you are saying, it is just I believe the better way to consolidate it all, is to put it the framework of there is nothing contradictory at all about embracing both a Texan and Southern self-identity.

Quote:
I have over the years made some concessions to Southern influences myself. With me though, My order of regional identities is Texan first, Southwestern would be second, and Southern would be third.
Again, well put! I would put my own as Texan, with Southern being an almost inseparable second, and Southwestern a very distant third (and even then if it was defined as in the original application of the western/frontier part of the South itself.

But anyway, great post JL. Even though we obviously disagree on lots of things, this one is one I can completely appreciate and relate to...
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:47 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Northwest Houston
6,263 posts, read 7,422,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuorleansbound View Post
I should not make assumptions about what you saying but I think it would be silly to think that "Beautiful Northwest Houston" has more in common with Arizona or New Mexico than it does the south.
When I was growing up in this part of Texas there were few if any references to Southern anything in the ambient culture. Businesses and institutions calling themselves Southwest this or that outnumbered those naming themselves Southern by a wide margin. In Dt Houston there was the Bank of the Southwest building with huge letters proclaiming their name prominently in the skyline. There are fewer references to the Southwest today, but that moniker still outnumbers any Southern monikers by a wide margin. Is there a Southern Airlines in Texas? No , but there is a Southwest airlines, as well as a Southwestern medical center in Dallas. In Houston there is Southwestern Energy, and a whole slew of businesses and institutions calling themselves Southwestern or Southwest. This is not just a directional deviation from the South but a separate identity. Do Southerners really see Texas as truly southern? NO. The true south (Dixie) has a unique culture that is very different from Texas , as different as the Midwest is from the northeast. Those regions share a lot of history and traditions but would either call themselves the same as the others, NO! Yes some parts of Texas are more similar to the south in culture terrain and climate than others, but we have already established that the whole state is included in the same region for the purposes of this discussion, regardless of what that region is.
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Old 02-08-2014, 02:31 AM
 
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Quote:
=Jack Lance;33378298]I will try to be brief and, I will try not to preach with this reply, will you? lol
Ok, I will return the courtesy! LOLL

Quote:
I think many Texans do consider Texas a region all to itself and not just a state identity. Texas is larger in area than other regions like the Northeast, New England or middle Atlantic states, as a few examples, and as unique in spirit that I do think it is different in many cases than what you post as an example of the South Carolinian.
Yes, yes, do you think I don't know all that as in how big Texas is and the unique spirit and history and all? And how large it is? Good lord, I grew up with these facts an intrinsic part of Texas history as taught either in school, legend, or family lore.

But anyway, I thought it would be understood as that the example of South Carolina and/or Virginia was just an example of how state pride does not conflict with a Southern identity as well, and that Texas was/is premier in that regard.

Quote:
Texas does have historical ties to New Mexico, Oklahoma and Arizona as well. The Eastern 2/3rds of present day NM was once claimed by Texas, and Arizona was formed out of the New Mexico territory, which in turn was formed out of the Mexican Cession, which of course was a direct result of Texas's admission into the US. I would say these are direct historical ties with a union that is still intact today.
Yeah, I know about all that, the history and all. But so far as the bolded parts go? Of course it does. BUT...which has more influence on what? The way you frame it is exactly upside-down. The key question is just which had more influence on the other? Easily, it was Texas on them. What influence did the rest have on Texas?

The "historical ties" you bring up are comparable -- in the realm of regional affiliation -- something like asking -- in an earlier era -- which had more influence? That is, South Carolina and Georgia on the newly opened "southwestern territories" (you heard right! ) consisting of Alabama and Mississippi...or vice-versa? The answer is obvious and is of the same underlying consideration as regards Texas with the southwestern states in question.

Wellll, that is not quite right. Southeastern settlement very much shaped Texas, whereas, the "Southern migration" pretty much stopped just east of the west Texas border.

Quote:
Take the CSA out of the equation and ask yourself how "southern" Texas is. Is it Dixie?
THAT is the whole point! One can't take the CSA out of the equation! This is like asking if one removed the Spanish and Mexican influences from Arizona and New Mexico, would it still be the interior Southwest? Or if one removed the Quaker and Puritan influence from New England would it still be New England? Hell, if pigs had wings, would they be eagles?

But yes, Texas is Dixie. See any dictionary definition. Dixie is defined as the 11 Old Confederate states.

Quote:
Like I told Kathryn I was taught in middle school that Texas was in the Southwest region of the US. I assume that since text books are approved at the state level that students all over the state were being taught the same as I was, maybe I am mistaken. I don't think so, and that tells me at least in the 1970's that the state establishment of Texas did not see this state as Southern, or at least they did not want to teach their kids that Texas was Southern for whatever reason. Maybe others who remember their middle school geography can chime in on when this may have changed.
I know about all that. I was a teacher myself for 15 years. I also know how the teaching came to be. This one is too lengthy to possibly go into in one post, but it boils down to a desire to re-package Texas into a "Southwestern" as opposed to "Southern" identity...all for business and political reasons (with LBJ leading the charge. But once he was out of office, he was frank about it in his memoirs...that Texas was part of the South. But anyway, that is another topic of sorts, has been posted before, so that one can be tabled.

Quote:
I understand it was Southern living or whatever magazine that posted a list of "Texas" Cities. It was Middesean(sp) Who posted that the magazine was listing cities that were not southern. I asked for a clarification, was he saying none of those Texas cities were southern, or was he saying that some Texas cities are not southern while others are , he confirmed the latter then all hell broke lose when you chimed in and now short replys are impossible.
Chimed in? LMAO. Let's go back and look a bit at it all, shall we? Midessan (sp?) was the one who -- intentionally -- opened up the can of worms and drug out the horse carcass to be beaten once again... and even said so much himself. There was no need to do it at all, and anyone who has the slightest bit of perception and "college hours" on this forum knows full well just how sick and tired and tired most of us are. He knew exactly what he was doing and might even be snickering over it all.

So you say short replies are impossible? You are right. But you oughta trace the reason back to the source as to why it is so. Anyone who starts on this theme is going to be in for what they receive in reply.

That is what disgusts me most about it all. That Midessan obviously knew ahead of time what was going to happen, but chose to do it anyway....

Quote:
I hope you have a great weekend and I can't wait for your learned reply !
LOL You just heard it and hope you have a great one in turn! Oh wow, I think it is time I hit the sack!

Y'all all have a good one...even you, JL! (just givin' you a bit of shlit, JL), you are a worthy opponent!
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:47 AM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,520,211 times
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Oh man, you are going to keep me up all night, aren't you? LOL. I just caught this one before logging out for the night...or is it morning now...? Anyway...

Quote:
=Jack Lance;33378635]When I was growing up in this part of Texas there were few if any references to Southern anything in the ambient culture. Businesses and institutions calling themselves Southwest this or that outnumbered those naming themselves Southern by a wide margin.
Yes....in the same general sense as that businesses and institutions in Georgia or North Carolina might label themselves "Southeastern". So what? The main point is that there is no contradiction in the two being anything but parts of the whole. Southeastern and Southwestern (as in the original application)?

Do you think there is an accident as to why this conference is still in existence after so many years"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southw...tic_Conference

Note the membership colleges and the history?

Same with the old Southwest Conference.

Quote:
Is there a Southern Airlines in Texas?
No, not that I know of. Is there one in Georgia? LOL

No , but there is a Southwest airlines, as well as a Southwestern medical center in Dallas. In Houston there is Southwestern Energy, and a whole slew of businesses and institutions calling themselves Southwestern or Southwest.

Quote:
This is not just a directional deviation from the South but a separate identity. Do Southerners really see Texas as truly southern? NO.
LOL. Who and from which states? And how do you define "true Southerners"? I know some people from Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia (some are true friends and kin of mine as my own ancestral roots are in the Deep South), who don't even consider Louisiana or South Carolina part of the "true South" Much less North Carolina, Virginia, Kentucky, Arkansas, etc.

So what is your point here? What is your definition of the "true South", and by what measure to you consider it to be so? Back up your opinions with something more substantial than something so vague as the way you posed it. For example, what makes Virginia more "Southern" than Texas? Or Alabama more "Southern" than Arkansas.? And all kinds of silly comparisons that really amount not much more than some people equate "The South" as being synonymous with "Southeast". Which is both historically inaccurate and patently ridiculous, and can be easily picked apart.

Quote:
The true south (Dixie) has a unique culture that is very different from Texas , as different as the Midwest is from the northeast.
Uhhhh, consult your dictionary. Dixie defined as the Old Confederate States, like or not. But anyway, your contention otherwise, pulls the rug from 'neath your whole premise.

The Midwest vs. Northeast comparison? Oh please. This is flat ludicrous. If you had said "industrial Midwest" as opposed to "plains Midwest" as a basis of comparison, I might have agreed you had a point...
for the same reason that the "Southwest" Texas is part of -- historically and culturally -- is, in essence, just a sorta twin to the "southeast"....the two making up -- together -- the larger "South"...even though there are obviously notable difference.

BUT...those differences do not even remotely compare to how different Texas is to say, Arizona, in terms of all things which make a region a true region.

Quote:
Those regions share a lot of history and traditions but would either call themselves the same as the others, NO! Yes some parts of Texas are more similar to the south in culture terrain and climate than others, but we have already established that the whole state is included in the same region for the purposes of this discussion, regardless of what that region is.
For one thing -- as has been said before -- I don't accept your premise that southeast = South. But be as it may, cultural terrain and all is the least of considerations when grouping states into a region. This, as I think we both agree, is more predicated upon historical and cultural (and all that encompasses) considerations.

And in that regard? Wellll, since there is no "right or wrong" answer anyway? I will just refer back to the self-identification polls, and be content to leave it all up to each individual Texan as to what they (we) prefer to declare as to our primary "regional identity".

Oh man, time to crash dive into bed and should have done so long ago. LOL

But dad-gummit, would you perhaps join me in agreeing that anyone who revises this subject -- as in those who know the history of the whole thing yet still proceed with it -- should be put on trial, and if found guilty, should be sentenced to be burned at the stake at sunrise?

(Note" Leniency and a suspended sentence can be extended to "newbies", but with a stern warning, they are on probation!)

Ok y'all, either good night or good morning!
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Old 02-08-2014, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,655 posts, read 60,289,862 times
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My husband grew up in East Texas and he DEFINITELY considers himself southern as well as Texan. How could he not? In Tyler we have the Robert E Lee Rebels (had to change that name to Raiders a few years ago). We have Confederate memorials all over the place. We have plantations. We have southern style cuisine. We have an African American population that is higher than the state average, due to the history of slavery in this region, as well as simply our close proximity and our cultural ties to the Deep South. Southern accents, southern foods, southern history, southern weather patterns - it's all around us.

I lived in the Deep South before moving to Texas - I spent ten years of my life in Georgia, I was born in Louisiana, and I lived in Alabama, Tennessee, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, and Arkansas at one point or the other was well. When I moved to Texas twenty years ago, I immediately picked up on the familiar southern vibe - but of course Texas is so much MORE than southern - it's also got that cowboy and Tex Mex culture thrown in for good measure, and I LOVE it.

But wow - I could immediately sense the deeply southern culture of the state. It's not the "deep south" but it's definitely southern in character and flavor, especially along the eastern half.
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Old 02-08-2014, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Where I live.
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But wow - I could immediately sense the deeply southern culture of the state. It's not the "deep south" but it's definitely southern in character and flavor, especially along the eastern half.

I'd go so far as to say all of that is very true for your area, but also confine that to the eastern THIRD, if that much. While far East Texas is so much like the true Deep South state of MS that I had a hard time telling the difference--I don't get that same vibe in any other part of the state, especially West Texas.
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Old 02-08-2014, 10:33 AM
 
Location: The Magnolia City
8,928 posts, read 14,258,900 times
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I am also a native Houstonian and your experiences do not mirror mine. Houston is a humongous place, and, as I'm constantly reminded, even people who grew up here don't know it that well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Lance View Post
When I was growing up in this part of Texas there were few if any references to Southern anything in the ambient culture. Businesses and institutions calling themselves Southwest this or that outnumbered those naming themselves Southern by a wide margin. In Dt Houston there was the Bank of the Southwest building with huge letters proclaiming their name prominently in the skyline. There are fewer references to the Southwest today, but that moniker still outnumbers any Southern monikers by a wide margin. Is there a Southern Airlines in Texas? No , but there is a Southwest airlines, as well as a Southwestern medical center in Dallas. In Houston there is Southwestern Energy, and a whole slew of businesses and institutions calling themselves Southwestern or Southwest. This is not just a directional deviation from the South but a separate identity.
Yes, there is Southwest Airlines in Houston. There's also Delta Airlines in Houston.

I have always seen the "Southwest" title in a historical context. Texas is the Southwest in the same vein of Louisiana, Arkansas, and Oklahoma, as they are the South which is west of the Mississippi; not that either of them belong in the same cultural region of Arizona or New Mexico, which is ridiculous.

Houston doesn't even sit in the western half of the country, and it looks more like the Carolinas than it does El Paso.

Quote:
Do Southerners really see Texas as truly southern? NO. The true south (Dixie) has a unique culture that is very different from Texas , as different as the Midwest is from the northeast. Those regions share a lot of history and traditions but would either call themselves the same as the others, NO! Yes some parts of Texas are more similar to the south in culture terrain and climate than others, but we have already established that the whole state is included in the same region for the purposes of this discussion, regardless of what that region is.
So when did you take this poll of every southerner in the nation where you discovered that they don't see Texas as part of the South? I used to live in Atlanta, and my experience taught me that, generally speaking, the only southerners who didn't include Texas in the South were those who had never been here before. On top of that, few people ever even assumed I was from Texas until I told them I was. They thought I was from Georgia, based on my accent alone.

The Houston neighborhood I grew up in was as southern as they come. We spoke with southern accents, ate grits, attended Baptist churches, etc. Spanish moss hung from the trees in my neighborhood. You could drop the Acres Homes neighborhood right in southern Mississippi and there would be few noticeable differences.

So, you're entitled to your opinion, but you certainly don't speak for me and many other Houstonians. No one can convince me that Texas is this monolithic entity unto itself when I have more in common culturally with folks on the southern Atlantic coast than I do with people who live in the western tip of my own state.

And I'll ask this question for the 3,124th time in my posting history: what exactly will you find throughout the entirety of "Dixie" that you will NOT find in eastern Texas?
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Old 02-08-2014, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Northwest Houston
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OK I have had my breakfast, I had fried eggs, blindfolded. Now blindfolded is a Texas , southwestern term for cooking eggs, In the "South" they would call it basted eggs, but I call it blindfolded because I am from Texas and not the south. In fact there is a whole genre of cooking that differentiates Texas cuisine from southern. I hate GRITS, and I always have, and in every greasy hole in the wall breakfast joint I have ever eaten in in Texas Hash Browns were the default side order with your bacon and eggs over grits. When one speaks of southern cooking are they talking about Texas ? NO they are talking about food indigenous to the "Deep South" I wont even go into whether anybody considers Tex-Mex southern, the answer is of course not. Food is an intricate part of culture and the food of Texas and the "Southwest" is obviously considered different from "southern" food.

I am going to go by memory here. I have read the two post by Texasreb and the one by Nairobi and I will try to answer all the relevant points that I remember. First Texasreb, not only do you discount what might be seen as a southwestern identity in Texas you seem to deny that there is ANY southwestern identity at all , I'm not sure if your arguing that the "Southwestern" identity does not exist in any form. Not every reference to Southwest is merely a directional indicator. I am not arguing that Texas is included or should be with Arizona and New Mexico, but more that Texas is a separate identity from the South, not that Texas is exclusive of the south.

Why shouldn't Texas be in a region where it is the influencer and not the influenced? Are you saying Texas can only "tag" along when it comes to its regional identity? When you place Texas in the South I believe you are diminishing Texas's import for Texas in my opinion would always be second fiddle in a southern alignment, the "deep south" will always be considered the true south and Atlanta will always be the true southern cultural capital, Texas would then play a sidekick role as that other guy.

Texasreb You were a teacher and that is great, so Texas was at least for a time trying to establish a southwestern identity in its schools , are you sure that time is over, and are you sure that was just some brief experiment in a separate identity, or was it a indication that Texas wants or at least wanted to be separate at one time? Are you sure any reference to Texas being a southwestern state or at least not a southern one, has been expunged from our public schools?

Nairobi, If your still reading this after my insult of grits in my first paragraph. I do understand there is a sizable southern identity in Texas. I grew up in the Houston area though and still did not feel it was by any means the dominate identity even here, in what I admit is the most Southern part of this state. For every name like Sienna Plantation you have a Cinco Ranch. But what you may have over looked is that the premise of the discussion we are having is that the whole state needs to be included in the same region whatever that may be. We could subdivide Texas into several regional identities but we want to keep it a Texas thing.

One last point I agree with you TexasReb that Middesean (sp) is to blame for all this quacking and should be ashamed of himself. Next time let sleeping dogs lye or dead horses (southwestern term) stay dead. lol

P.S> I am aware of the Is it true that Texans do not like to be referred to as Southerners? (Houston: home, school) thread, but never perused it so I do not know what may have been covered in that thread...But it seems the title, at least, fits me..

Last edited by Jack Lance; 02-08-2014 at 12:48 PM..
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:11 PM
 
Location: The Magnolia City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Lance View Post
OK I have had my breakfast, I had fried eggs, blindfolded. Now blindfolded is a Texas , southwestern term for cooking eggs, In the "South" they would call it basted eggs, but I call it blindfolded because I am from Texas and not the south. In fact there is a whole genre of cooking that differentiates Texas cuisine from southern. I hate GRITS, and I always have, and in every greasy hole in the wall breakfast joint I have ever eaten in in Texas Hash Browns were the default side order with your bacon and eggs over grits. When one speaks of southern cooking are they talking about Texas ? NO they are talking about food indigenous to the "Deep South" I wont even go into whether anybody considers Tex-Mex southern, the answer is of course not. Food is an intricate part of culture and the food of Texas and the "Southwest" is obviously considered different from "southern" food.
I've never heard of "blindfolded" or "basted" eggs, so go figure. You hate grits and so do plenty of people who are from the South. I can't stand fried okra.

When people speak of general southern cooking they're also not typically speaking of Louisiana specialties such as crawfish bread or po boys, so you must be saying that Louisiana isn't the South either. Not only can all generally southern foods be found in Texas, but certain Texas specialties are found across the region. What we affectionately call chicken fried steak here is country fried steak in Georgia. You can also find Tex-Mex, which, regardless of what you say, does have some southern influence.

Quote:
Why shouldn't Texas be in a region where it is the influencer and not the influenced? Are you saying Texas can only "tag" along when it comes to its regional identity? When you place Texas in the South I believe you are diminishing Texas's import for Texas in my opinion would always be second fiddle in a southern alignment, the "deep south" will always be considered the true south and Atlanta will always be the true southern cultural capital, Texas would then play a sidekick role as that other guy.
Only to people who don't know any better. The South is far too huge to suggest that the entirety of it looks to Atlanta. There's a reason that the South is commonly split up into sub-regions, with the two major ones being "Southeast" and "South Central". Atlanta dominates the Southeast while Houston and Dallas hold down the South Central region.

Quote:
Nairobi, If your still reading this after my insult of grits in my first paragraph. I do understand there is a sizable southern identity in Texas. I grew up in the Houston area though and still did not feel it was by any means the dominate identity even here, in what I admit is the most Southern part of this state. For every name like Sienna Plantation you have a Cinco Ranch. But what you may have over looked is that the premise of the discussion we are having is that the whole state needs to be included in the same region whatever that may be. We could subdivide Texas into several regional identities but we want to keep it a Texas thing.
That's fine. You'll never hear me say that Houston or Texas is this 100% typically southern place with no other influences that shaped its current identity. To be completely honest, I consider much of the Southeast to be somewhat vanilla with less of an exciting mixture that states like Texas and Louisiana have. Their food certainly isn't as good as ours. With that said, the foundations of Southeast Texas still lie within the Deep South and it is most certainly a part of that region, along with most of the Gulf Coast. As our city and region has historically been environed by cotton, rice, and sugarcane fields, and now contains the descendants of the slaves and sharecroppers who worked those fields, we are part of that territory. Plain and simple.

Last edited by Nairobi; 02-08-2014 at 01:24 PM..
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Northwest Houston
6,263 posts, read 7,422,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
I've never heard of "blindfolded" or "basted" eggs, so go figure. You hate grits and so do plenty of people who are from the South. I can't stand fried okra.

When people speak of general southern cooking they're also not typically speaking of Louisiana specialties such as crawfish bread or po boys, so you must be saying that Louisiana isn't the South either. Not only can all generally southern foods be found in Texas, but certain Texas specialties are found across the region. What we affectionately call chicken fried steak here is country fried steak in Georgia. You can also find Tex-Mex, which, regardless of what you say, does have some southern influence. .
Cajun/Creole is not really southern at all now that you mention it. It is a self contained culture born of French Canadian stock. Yes there are southern influences but what it is, is a culture onto itself which happens to be located in a southern state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
Only to people who don't know any better. The South is far too huge to suggest that the entirety of it looks to Atlanta. There's a reason that the South is commonly split up into sub-regions, with the two major ones being "Southeast" and "South Central". Atlanta dominates the Southeast while Houston and Dallas hold down the South Central region..
If Houston and Dallas are in the "south central" division of the south are you saying the Southwest as in the desert southwest is an extension of the South? Or did you just post south central because you didn't want to post that Dallas and Houston are in the southwest?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
That's fine. You'll never hear me say that Houston or Texas is this 100% typically southern place with no other influences that shaped its current identity. To be completely honest, I consider much of the Southeast to be somewhat vanilla with less of an exciting mixture that states like Texas and Louisiana have. Their food certainly isn't as good as ours. With that said, the foundations of Southeast Texas still lie within the Deep South and it is most certainly a part of that region, along with most of the Gulf Coast. As our city and region has historically been environed by cotton, rice, and sugarcane fields, and now contains the descendants of the slaves and sharecroppers who worked those fields, we are part of that territory. Plain and simple.
I think oil has much more influence on modern Houston than what the old agrarian culture of rice and cotton has. Cotton may have been king at one time but that was over 100 years ago. I understand that you feel connected to that past, but I do not. I was raised in a family of Engineers and perhaps that's why we may have two totally different perspectives. Oil is not southern and I think most southerners will tell you that.
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