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Old 02-14-2014, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Dallas
31,290 posts, read 20,737,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsy writer View Post
How has Fredericksburg grown from a little country town to lots of wineries in the area? Anyone??? Where would you recommend living to be close to wine country there besides Fredericksburg? How pricey is the area?
It will not be a "Napa valley" in our lifetime. Napa is flush with money. Fredericksburg, is as poor as church mice.

Compared to Napa, land is very very cheap in this area.
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Old 02-14-2014, 07:24 AM
 
Location: The People's Republic of Austin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristieP View Post
Other than the single wine from Messina Hof, and the ones from Becker, those are some fairly small and not well-known wineries. I still say that the majority of Texas wineries don't use non-Texas grapes.
If you think Fall Creek is a "small and not well-known winer(y)", then maybe you don't know as much as you represent about Texas wine. Frankly, the fact you acted like you didn't know about this entire issue raises that question as well.

The fact is, four of the five largest producing wineries in the state - Ste. Genevieve, Becker, Llano Estacado, and Messina Hof - use non-Texas juice, for a variety of reasons. The demand for Texas wines has grown faster than the vineyards to produce them from only Texas grapes. Whether that matters is a personal choice. I don't think most wine drinkers care. What they care about is the labeling.
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Old 02-14-2014, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX
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Quote:
I don't think most wine drinkers care. What they care about is the labeling.
Nah, I care about how it tastes vs. how much it costs .
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Old 02-14-2014, 07:35 AM
 
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I can see the region slowly developing into something like Napa--wine country near the edge of a big city that generates a good deal of tourism--but I would be surprised to see it approach the raw production of Napa. There are a fair number of people who are visiting Austin strictly for foodie reasons and pairing a wine tour with those trips makes a ton of sense.
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Old 02-14-2014, 07:53 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX
15,269 posts, read 35,637,527 times
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Quote:
It will not be a "Napa valley" in our lifetime. Napa is flush with money. Fredericksburg, is as poor as church mice.

Compared to Napa, land is very very cheap in this area.
wha...? There is actually a ton of money in that area. It is where the affluent and relatively healthy go to retire there days. On reason I could not afford to buy out my parents place was that the cost of land even 15-20 miles out of FB has gotten so expensive; at least, land that was usable, I am sure you can get a rock outcropping pretty cheap. Anyway, I regularly pick grapes to help out some of our family friends that own vineyards (albeit, it is more social for us), and it is changing out there over the years. It really is an 'industry' instead of a 'hobby' there days. No, it is never going to be a Napa Valley - while they conditions are actually very similar for critical parts of the seasons, they just aren't consistent enough. White grapes, in particular, are often impacted by too much moisture at the wrong time (iirc). The reds are much more suited for the area, as I understand it.

In any case, more of the reds will be high-percentage Texas grapes vs the whites.
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Old 02-14-2014, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Texas
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A couple of Texas Tech professors jump started the wine grape cultivation near Lubbock in the 1970's. The TX wine industry started out slow but has really taken off in the last few years. There are just not enough acres in production to meet the demand. Just like wines from other regions there are some hits and some misses, but I have had some really good ones from LLano Estacado, McPherson, & Becker.
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Old 02-14-2014, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Kaufman County, Texas
11,855 posts, read 26,876,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scm53 View Post
If you think Fall Creek is a "small and not well-known winer(y)", then maybe you don't know as much as you represent about Texas wine. Frankly, the fact you acted like you didn't know about this entire issue raises that question as well.
So just because I'm not a fan of one single winery, I'm suddenly an idiot? Nice.

I actually stay pretty well informed about the Texas wine industry through my participation in the Grapevine Wine Pouring Society Grapevine TX Travel Information | Hotels, Restauraunts and Events and by the friendships I've made with many winery owners through working at Grapefest Grapefest in Grapevine Texas | September 11, 12, 13 and 14, 2014 for the past 10 years.

My favorite Texas wineries: Brennan, Cross Timbers, Texas Hills, Kiepersol, Los Pinos, and Valley Mills.
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Old 02-14-2014, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Sacramento Mtns of NM
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Getting this thread back on track...I admit that I haven't a clue about "wineries" in Fredericksburg. That having been said, I think it's important to point out that a "winery" does NOT necessarily produce wine from it's own grape juice. One of the fastest growing businesses is that of "micro-wineries" - similar to the micro-brewery businesses that have become so ubiquitous today.

So just because the winery happens to be in Fredericksburg does NOT mean it produces wines from Texas grapes. Some of these wineries buy the already fermented juice by the TANK TRUCK load!

From Wikipedia:
Quote:
A micro-winery is a small wine producer that does not have its own vineyard, and instead sources its grape product from outside suppliers. The concept is similar to a microbrewery, in that small batches of product are made primarily for local consumption.[6] The concept of the micro-winery is not as easily accepted as that of the microbrewery, however, as the general public has been conditioned to associate a winery as having a vineyard. A winery uses similar wine-making equipment as a major commercial winery, just on a smaller scale. Glass carboys and sanitary plastic pails are often seen in the facilities of a micro-winery. Typically, each batch of wine yields 23 Liters (6 US gallons).One of the primary differences of a micro-winery as compared to a typical winery is that a micro-winery is typically able to offer a wider range of wines; as it is not tied to the grapes it grows. New York State provides a specific micro-winery license[7] that requires the microwinery to purchase local ingredients.
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Old 02-14-2014, 06:07 PM
 
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Don't think that there's a specific area of Texas that can be compared to Napa. There is a county in West Texas, (Terry, about 40 mi SW of Lubbock), where nearly 80% of the state's wine grapes are grown. However, the closest circle of wineries is in Lubbock, with five, I think. The Hill Country has close to 40 wineries according to this web site, just not a lot of wine grape production.

Last edited by shoe01; 02-14-2014 at 06:16 PM..
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Old 02-14-2014, 09:58 PM
 
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1. the 75% rule is correct for it to say Texas on the front label

2. just because it says for sale in Texas that does not mean there are no Texas grapes in it that just means there are not 75% Texas grapes

3. I can about guarantee that anything labeled Black Spanish is going to have a very large % of Texas grapes because Texas is about the only place on earth that still grows that for wine

4. MANY Texas wineries bring in juice from other places I would say the majority do and pretty much 100% of the larger ones do they simply HAVE TO as was explained earlier if they want to have the wine to sell then they need to have juice to make wine from and Texas does not come anywhere close to growing enough grapes to meet that demand

5. it is actually not controversial it is actually widely known and accepted.....why.....well because it is a chicken and egg dilemma.....what came first the grapes to be able to make the wine or the winery to buy the available grapes

well the answer is WELL KNOWN it is the winery needed to buy the grapes and the winery needed to buy the grapes cannot get open and running with any volume unless the grapes/juice are available for them to get open and running and a grower is not going to produce the grapes unless there is a winery to buy them

the grapes/juice are the perishable product with a life span.....so they need an outlet for their product and the only way that will happen is if a winery gets started and has demand for the grapes

it takes at least 4 years for grapes to reach full production you will get 20-25% the first year, maybe 50-60% the next year and then 75% or so the third and 100% the 4th and the quality should improve (provided proper vineyard siting and variety selection and viticulture practices) each of those years so the first 2 years at least those grapes are only good for blending or for making a very low price point wine (and probably still blending with them)

at the end of that 4th year a vineyard owner will probably have an investment of $25,000 per acre

then you have the real issue in Texas and that is freeze, frost and hail

the Texas vineyards especially those on the high plains are currently in terrible shape after a freeze that wiped many of them down to the ground last year it took most every vineyard up there (and down into the rolling plains near Mason ect) to ZERO production and it will take several years to recover from that

take the vineyard on the UTIMCO land (UT) with the 1,000 acre vineyard.....unless they have done serious replanting over the last several years that vineyard is down to around 800 acres and many of those are not well cared for and not near full production

and when they have an "event" like last year well they can lose all 800 acres of production literally overnight....and that can take many years to recover from as far as the vines are concerned and in the mean time you need to have wine to put on the shelf or you lose shelf space and possibly even distribution

they not only bring in juice from California they bring it in from all over the world.....it is COMMON practice all over the world to bring in juice from other areas of production and even from other countries

a story that a very well known and well respected LONG TERM grape grower in Texas told me is he had a foreign exchange student from Germany staying with him years ago and this young man came from a region of Germany that was known for a particular type/price point of wine.....and in Europe the wine/grape laws are much more strict and they are LAWS not just industry standards

well the person I was talking to was of course always talking wine with their guest and they guest had made the comment that basically his area made the best wine that cheap Italian grapes could produce......which would have been against the LAW.....and basically what the deal was is that region had elevated their grape quality to the point that it no longer made sense to make that lower price point wine with those grapes yet that price point of wine from that region had a large market to fill

so the end result was those vineyard owners in that region sold their higher quality grapes to another area of Germany (most likely resulting in another region of origin label law violation when it was all made and packaged and labeled) because that area had a need for grapes to meet their demand and higher price point and then the other region brought in cheap Italian lower quality grapes for their demand needs

to be clear it is not illegal to sell grapes anywhere you wish anywhere in the world it is the violation of the much more strict label and country, region, appellation label laws that are much more prevalent in Europe and honestly much more broken and violated

I would seriously doubt that any Texas wineries are violating any label laws simply because they do not need to.....TEXAS on the front label means nothing (or even do not buy) to many people that keep up with and follow such things (wine snobs that are not going to buy a Texas wine) and for the few that specifically do want a Texas wine there is enough available production to easily meet their demand and thus no need to put TEXAS or High Plains Appellation falsely on the label

for all others that may want to try a TEXAS wine well they will not know the meaning of the words on the label and if they ask well again there is plenty of TEXAS and appellation labeled wine to meet that demand......everyone else just buys and they are none the wiser or they do not care

after freeze you have frost.....frost is not a freeze event

grapes are pruned each spring.....the buds that are left produce a new cane and each cane has a cluster of grapes on it.....grape buds are tertiary compound buds they have the ability to produce a cane up to 3 times and each time the resulting cane and the resulting cluster is weaker and weaker and less desirable, less production and more uneven in quality and ripening

so spring time comes.....your grapes start to bud out with that first primary bud.....you get 3-4 inches of green growth and then a frost event comes where the temp drops overnight to say 27 degrees for a couple of hours (yes below freezing but not near enough to kill a mature trunk like a hard freeze and sometimes not enough to kill a green shoot) and then you get a frost where actual frost settles on that green growth like on your car windshield......you are going to lose most of not all of that green growth

the result is the secondary buds start to come out some short period of time later.....well you are probably going to lose 30%+ of your production by tonnage right there and clusters will be smaller, less flavorful and more uneven in ripeness across the vineyard and you will basically have blending quality grapes

if you get another frost event and lose the secondary and the tertiary buds come out and quality and volume suffer again.....you lose those and you are SOL

then you have hail....hail before the buds come out, but hard enough to beat up the buds.....hail when the shoots are tender and small and they get knocked off the vine, hail when you have actual grape clusters forming in a tender state and they are damaged or knocked off.....hail when grapes are mature or almost mature and the grapes are damaged and fungus and rot sets in or the grapes are knocked to the ground......and you can even get hail one year that damages the buds that are forming for next years and that caries over to the next year

when you farm grapes you are really farming this years crop and at least next years crop because the buds forming on the canes this year are the buds that will bud out next year for next years crop.....so even if you lose 100% of a crop 1 year you do not get to toss in the towel that year and go fishing you still have to spray for fungus, scout/spray for insects, properly irrigate and do all the things necessary to have a healthy vine the next season

so with all of those very COMMON issues in Texas (issues that California and Oregon ect can also face, but not nearly as often) it means that grape production is highly variable in Texas and that combined with more demand that there is available grapes even in the best years means that Texas Wineries import many many tanker loads and other volumes of outside juice and some do so from around the world

also there are varieties that are just too difficult to grow in Texas.....Chardonnay is one....last I knew only Delaney vineyards in Lamesa, Texas had any significant acreage of Chardonnay on Texas because everyone else has given up on it or decided against growing it....there is other smaller acreage here and there, but not of significance (perhaps Certenberg Vineyards owned by former NFLer Alphonse Dotson as well (father to Baylor great Santana Dotson also))

Pinot Noir is another Pinot Meunier is another.....so basically that is why you see little if any TEXAS (front of label) sparkling wines from Texas because the three Champagne grapes do not do well here (Delaney does produce a sparkler and has a bottling machine to do it as well)

other varsities bud out too early and will almost always suffer frost damage.....the longer it takes a vine to bud out into the season the better suited (based on that single metric) it will be for Texas.....then of course it has to be suitable for the rest of the climate conditions and able to make a quality/salable wine

Mediterranean and Italian and Spanish varieties generally do better in Texas especially because of the hot day conditions and on the high plains specifically (less so the hill country) the cooler nights

as grapes mature the hot days help sugars increase, but also if the days are too hot and worse of the nights are too hot you get a corresponding decrease in other desirable flavor compounds and you can get an increase in vegetative or grassy taste that are undesirable

proper selection of varieties can help alleviate this, but it will always be an issue

as sugars get too high you get a wine that is too "hot" too high in alcohol and this has the burning sensation to the mouth like a liquor and worse you have lost desired flavor compounds.....one common solution to this is to concentrate on picking the grapes (harvesting they are not picked and actually grapes are "cut" not picked if harvested by hand) when the flavor compounds are at their most desirable with less regard for actual sugar content/brix which is the traditional and commonly used method for determining ripeness and if the brix is too low well then you ameliorate (which is often actually a prohibited/illegal method of wine production in many of the well known wine regions of Europe even though again that law is OFTEN broken, but it is 100% legal here in the USA) and you do that by adding sucrose (granular sugar) or even fructose (corn sweetener) and that is how you get your alcohol to the desired levels (not for getting drunk, but for TASTE)

how many wineries in Texas are doing that.....well I know of the ones that I know of and I know that many others are probably not even familiar with that concept so I will let you find out, ask, figure it out for yourself......and as far as using sugar VS fructose well if you know what fructose taste like you might even be able to figure that out in some because it will show up if you know what you are looking for

and to be clear the ones that I know of that do such things would be up front about it if you knew who to ask and you did in fact ask.....but at the same time some of those have tasting room personnel that would not know the meaning of ameliorate or what sucrose or fructose is so if you ask the first person you see when you walk in the door you will probably get a

if you talk to someone that is actually in production and you are not doing it to try and "call them out" (even though it is VERY COMMON EVEN IN CALIFORNIA AND OTHER REGIONS OF THE WORLD AND LEGAL IN MANY OF THEM AND EVEN COMMON WHERE IT IS ILLEGAL IN AREAS OF EUROPE BECAUSE OF GOOFY LAWS) they will probably talk with you all about it....in Europe it is probably common to add a bit of water and same in California because again with the cooler nights specifically they can take grapes to full ripeness without sacrificing other flavor compounds and they still can have a wine that is a bit hot so they water it down just a tad after rounds and rounds of taste comparisons at various levels of amelioration

so at the end of the day it is well known and accepted and even encouraged by Texas grape growers for wineries to establish demand even with non-Texas juice and then as demand is established approach vineyards about meeting production and many wineries will because as they develop a name and an audience and educate that audience they can let the facts out and their audience will be generally very understanding and accepting of that message and they will look forward to more TEXAS on the front label down the road

6. now as to will the hill country be the next Napa

the answer to that for now and well into the future is NO.....and the #1 reason for that is because of a disease called pierces disease

this is a disease that is endemic in the hill country and pretty much every area of Texas that is south of I-20 and east of I-35 and even some more area than that and it has showed evidence even on the high plains

this disease is like Oak Wilt for grapes it functions the exact same way....and it is like citrus greening on citrus crops

basically a bacteria is spread by sap sucking insects usually (but also other methods) and that bacteria gets into the xylem in plants (where water is transported) and in plants with segmented xylem the bacteria does not pass through the xylem and it builds up and the plant reacts and it ends up clogging the xylem and water no longer flows and the plant slowly dies

100% of vitis vinifera (French/European wine) grapes are susceptible pierces disease so that means if you have a vineyard with those grapes in the areas of Texas that have PD there is a very good chance that in the long term it is going to die off either slowly (the vines die rapidly in 2-3 years, but if you rogue hard and spray for insects and scout hard you can extend the life of your overall vineyard for a long time) or if it gets bad it pretty much takes you out quickly

Muscadine grapes are not susceptible (but then again they are NOT ACCEPTABLE for any decent wine haha)

American grapes like Vitis riparia (baco noir, marechal foch, and frontenac) and labrusca (concord and niagara) are not susceptible and many of these types of grapes you will see in Missouri, Arkansas, and Michigan wineries and others although there are some vinifera vineyards in Arkansas as well

Black Spanish (or can be called Lenoir or as Jaquez) (Vitis aestivalis) is one that has been grown on Texas for a long long time and is resistant and is what the Del Rio winery was using for the longest time (and still is)

Norton and Cynthiana are two others that are resistant and that have been used in Texas and the vineyard at the Grapevine location of Deleany is one of the two I can't remember which (an "eye ball" vineyard it is called)

the above 3 and many others are the types of grapes that (got here as soon as he could) Texas grape breeder TV Munson worked with and that have been and still are grown in Texas for wine production and are PD resistant

a new one that is more and more popular was bred by Florida A&M (FAMU) specifically to be a wine grape is Blanc Du Bois

HAAK winery has used it a lot and others have to

so unfortunately until the PD threat is figured out for the long term it is a poor proposition for a vineyard owner to plant a Vitis vinifera vineyard anywhere within several hundred miles in any direction of Fredericksburg and while that is not going to hold back the growth of the winery industry there the reality is Napa is Napa because it has the outstanding climate to grow the best known and most popular Vitis vinifera grapes and to grow them to a quality that can compete with France and elsewhere and the wine makers have the knowledge and ability to ferment them to their highest potential

Texas has some winemakers with the ability to get the most out of Texas grapes and or to get the most out of any grapes/juice that they get from anywhere in the world, but the reality is that cost money and if you do not have the market to sell into that price point consistently and profitably to do so does not make sense so instead you use your knowledge, skills, taste, and talents to produce a wine that is consistent year in and year out and that meets your market demands and produces a profit

that is not to say that Texas wine makers will not recognize when they have grapes with potential to go for the gold or double gold in San Francisco (and TEXAS on the front of the label wines have done just that Bobby Cox, Craig Parker and Greg Bruni to name 3) but the reality is you cannot turn grapes without the potential on the vine into something special and you are wasting your time to try, but you can take very good grapes and make them crap as well instead of making them into a very desirable wine that will sell and sell well for a nice price point and profit

getting rid of PD is like getting rid of Oak Wilt or treating Oak Wilt with survival success and we all know how that is going in the hill country (not well), but they are researching and working on PD, Oak Wilt and Citrus Greening and areas of California have PD as well into the central valley and California has actually been conduction research on it longer, but it just takes time and money and resources.....so until that is done the hill country will not have the (most likely Spanish and Med popular varieties planted in a significant amount to support their local wineries) and until that happens there is no point to really try to compare to any real "wine region"

sorry to ramble

TexasVines

Last edited by TexasVines; 02-14-2014 at 10:27 PM..
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