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Thank you for your kind words and your well-reasoned response. I even enjoyed the little stabs! LOL.
You are very welcome, and I don't even mind if you might counter-jab at me in turn! Hell, Gretchen...I don't mind being called a "redneck Southern boy" LOL
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However, some of my less religious and gay/lesbian friends have indicated that they are often approached about their religion or lifestyle. As you mentioned, that might be fairly normal if religion plays such a huge role. The problem for them is the "lectures" and social shunning that is often encountered after stating their beliefs. Several mentioned that they were asked whether they knew that they would be going to hell, that their lifestyle is perverted, that they need to be "saved" etc. Suddenly, there were no more invitations to social gatherings, dinners, clubs etc. You get the idea.
Yeah, I get the idea, but I also think you are using extreme examples to make your point. I could just as easily counter with the fact that a lot of folks who live "alternative lifestyles" get a big kick and perverse enjoyment out of rubbing it in everone elses' face.
You speak of the problems for "them"? Well, there are also problems certain types create for "US". Why does the burden of accomodation fall on the rest of us? And please, give a concrete example of what you speak of in the realm of someone going out of their way to hinder anothers lifestyle if first of all, it had not been thrown the latters face to begin with?
I agree with you that all oughta be able to live and freely choose. However, I will not agree that that choice is a right free of consequences, as per society being obligated to accept it.
If one wants to violate the moral norms of a community in an open way? Groovy (damn, am I old or what? LOL), but don't whine when that community wants to protect and keep their own standards of behavior.
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I have no problem with religion being important, even with it being in the public sphere (because after all, it is Constitutional) - but I do have a problem with people forcing it down your throat. There is no law against it (it is free speech and you CAN simply walk away), but it is nevertheless off-putting and IMHO intolerant.
Ok, I accept that we just have different definitions of "intolerant." To me, "tolerance" means acceptance within specified limits. Not moral anarchy or embracing the next trendy fad that comes about.
Be that as it may though, can you be a bit more specific (at the risk of being repetitive) as to an example of someone forcing their religion down your throat? Please don't take this wrong, but my own honest experience is that when people use that phrase? What it really boils down to is that they are extremely insecure in what they believe, themselves.
For instance. I classify myself as a conservative Christian...even though I know the Good Lord is going to kick me square in the ass for some of the things I have done in this world. But anyway, I get stuff shoved down my throat everyday, from the media to the dominating self-absorbed secular humanitic culture we live in today. Even "Merry Christmas" is supposedly offensive to some...
What I am saying, I guess, is that the biggest whiners and babies in the world are not conservative Christians. If such terms can be used, we have more pride than that.
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As a heterosexual women, I cannot really give first-hand accounts of how gays are treated, but many of my gay/lesbian friends report receiving similar treatment in terms of sexual orientation in some more "enlightened" TX cities such as Dallas and Austin.
Everyone demographic segment in the world can tell tales of woe. I wonder what conservative Christians feel like living in San Franciso...?
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I think it puts a lot of people off TX and Christianity as well. Quite possibly it leads to all these truly inaccurate stereotypes about Texans being stupid or ignorant etc. etc. I don't know, but I think it may contribute, and that is too bad, because TX does have a lot to offer.
I am glad it DOES put some people "off" Texas. If that makes me intolerant, then so be it. So far as Christianity goes, wellll, that is one that I guess all have to work out for themselves. I am certainly no paragon of virtue...
As the old saying goes, O' Lord forgive us when we doubt...as we all do, doubt that is...
But back to as regards Texas? It is not an easy place to live if one expects a place free of people still capable of making moral value judgements and living by standards tried and true by our fathers, mothers, and history.
We are what we are. And don't pretend to be anything but.
With all that said? I enjoy exchanges with you, Gretchen. Even in disagreement. As someone else smart once said. If you surround yourself with those who always agree with you? Then you will never learn anything!
We used to live in Hays County in Hill Country and also in Austin. We're both New England artsy liberal academic type yankees and an interracial family.
Sometimes I really miss Texas. I miss the Austin music scene, traveling with the band, and hitting every kicker bar from Houston to Odessa. Those small clubs where the band had to play inside a chicken wire cage because of the flying beer bottles, live rattlesnakes in a terrarium, and a bouncer at the door named Bubba with bib-front overalls and a pick axe handle.
There's a lot of fantastic people in Texas. Some of the friendliest, most sincere people and also some of the worst bigots who would say any awful thing right to your face as if it was acceptable. That's what made us not see any future there. We did not want to raise a daughter in that kind of environment.
To be honest, western Massachusetts is much more racist than Texas, by far. They just say it behind our back and not to our face like in Texas. I'd move back to Austin or the areas out by Dripping Springs, Driftwood, Wimberley, in a split second but I have no family there anymore. America has to stop all this racism and race baiting and other forms of intolerance. It's a dirty,dark cloud over the country, it's people and espoused values.
Yeah, I get the idea, but I also think you are using extreme examples to make your point. I could just as easily counter with the fact that a lot of folks who live "alternative lifestyles" get a big kick and perverse enjoyment out of rubbing it in everone elses' face.
You speak of the problems for "them"? Well, there are also problems certain types create for "US". Why does the burden of accomodation fall on the rest of us? And please, give a concrete example of what you speak of in the realm of someone going out of their way to hinder anothers lifestyle if first of all, it had not been thrown the latters face to begin with?
I'm going to agree with Gretchen that you're more likely to meet a Bible thumper in Texas than someone who likes to shock others with their behavior.
I don't think that it takes 'in your face' to be excluded from certain groups. I'm not Christian, but it doesn't come up unless someone asks me. I'm conservative in my dress and mannerisms. People are shocked I have a *toe ring* because it apparently is totally out of character for me. But I've been told many times I'm going to hell (and that's the last time they talked to me, thank you very much).
The 'burden of accommodation' falls on everyone; some Christians are intolerant of anyone who isn't Christian. If you look at it from another point of view (non-Christians), we have to accommodate them in far more ways. Stores closed on Sundays, liquor laws, churches being tax free, listening to unwanted lectures ... We don't ask you to participate in our lifestyle, just let us do it without interference.
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Originally Posted by TexasReb
I agree with you that all oughta be able to live and freely choose. However, I will not agree that that choice is a right free of consequences, as per society being obligated to accept it.
If one wants to violate the moral norms of a community in an open way? Groovy (damn, am I old or what? LOL), but don't whine when that community wants to protect and keep their own standards of behavior.
Those consequences are the definition of intolerance...
And, they're not confined to those who just behave differently, either. Just believing something different can get you ostracized, regardless of how well your behavior matches the norm. Hell, just being born a different color is all it takes sometimes.
(Yes, there are societies far more intolerant than ours, but we're still not perfect.)
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Originally Posted by TexasReb
Be that as it may though, can you be a bit more specific (at the risk of being repetitive) as to an example of someone forcing their religion down your throat? Please don't take this wrong, but my own honest experience is that when people use that phrase? What it really boils down to is that they are extremely insecure in what they believe, themselves.
In HS, we read Faust, which of course brought up the subject of religion. Out of 50 kids, only two of us could actually explain how and why we had our beliefs. Neither of us was Christian. I've seen time and again where the only support Christians could give for their position was that it was in one (poorly) translated book. I'm not knocking the lessons in the bible, but I can present other evidence why it's not good to murder someone or take their wife.
So, for examples of forcing down the throat, we'll assume the 'you're going to hell' bit has been covered. How about some comments on bad news? "God works in mysterious ways." "God never gives you more than you can handle." "I'll pray for you." "Your faith is just being tested." (My personal favorite) "God helps those who help themselves." Good news? "Bless the lord!" "Your prayers have been answered." "God works in mysterious ways."
Other than the hell part, I get that it's well-meaning and I don't make a big deal out of it, but it's always in your face. I have met a few Christians who can discuss their beliefs without trying to convert me, but most take it as a personal mission to save my soul when they find out.
To tie it back into the original question, I'm pretty sure they'll get quite a bit of that here. Whether or not it becomes a big deal will be how they handle it.
I'm going to agree with Gretchen that you're more likely to meet a Bible thumper in Texas than someone who likes to shock others with their behavior.
I don't think that it takes 'in your face' to be excluded from certain groups. I'm not Christian, but it doesn't come up unless someone asks me. I'm conservative in my dress and mannerisms. People are shocked I have a *toe ring* because it apparently is totally out of character for me. But I've been told many times I'm going to hell (and that's the last time they talked to me, thank you very much).
Let me say right off the bat, Laura, that you and Gretchen both are worthy opponents, ok?
The term 'Bible Thumper"? Isn't that a relativistic judgement in itself? What is meant by the term "Bible Thumper"? One who believes? And is not ashamed of it? Perhaps the reason that, in Texas, one is more likely to meet the latter than the former is that down here commuity values prevail and check moral anarchy.
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The 'burden of accommodation' falls on everyone; some Christians are intolerant of anyone who isn't Christian. If you look at it from another point of view (non-Christians), we have to accommodate them in far more ways. Stores closed on Sundays, liquor laws, churches being tax free, listening to unwanted lectures ... We don't ask you to participate in our lifestyle, just let us do it without interference.
No, it doesn't. In a coherent society, some moral value is going to prevail. That is just the way it is. It cant be any other way...and still remain coherent and cohesive. The Bill of Right protects the basic rights of all, but nothing says that anyone is obligated to accomodate values that go against their own.
Lifestyles? DO so without interference? I have no problem with that. That does not, however, translate into that "we" (however defined) are obligated to accept it either morally, nor legally.
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Those consequences are the definition of intolerance...
And intolerance...as defined by those who like to use the term "intolerance" is not to be tolerated, right? Sorry, Laura, but Again, I revert to that ol' classic "Alice In Wonderland" where "Humpty Dumpty" said a word is "no more nor less than what I want it to mean."
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And, they're not confined to those who just behave differently, either. Just believing something different can get you ostracized, regardless of how well your behavior matches the norm. Hell, just being born a different color is all it takes sometimes.
(Yes, there are societies far more intolerant than ours, but we're still not perfect.)
The obligation we have, all of us, is NOT to conform to societies expectations, but to be true to ourselves and not expect society to conform to our own eccentricities.
The TRULY pathetic thing in the world. no matter how idealistically nor prettily put, is to believe otherwise...
And intolerance...as defined by those who like to use the term "intolerance" is not to be tolerated, right?
That line of thinking, that you have to tolerate my intolerance or you're being intolerant to me, is a disingenuous circular argument. Liars logic.
Intolerance has little or nothing to do with preserving community values. It has to do with absolving yourself of responsibility for your own shortcomings by projecting the negative aspects of your self onto others, and using them as your scapegoat.
Intolerance is directed outward towards controlling the thoughts and behavior of others and vilifying them, rather than inward toward taking responsibility for your own thoughts and behavior, which I'm pretty sure are less than perfect.
That line of thinking, that you have to tolerate my intolerance or you're being intolerant to me, is a disingenuous circular argument. Liars logic.
Intolerance has little or nothing to do with preserving community values. It has to do with absolving yourself of responsibility for your own shortcomings by projecting the negative aspects of your self onto others, and using them as your scapegoat.
Intolerance is directed outward towards controlling the thoughts and behavior of others and vilifying them, rather than inward toward taking responsibility for your own thoughts and behavior, which I'm pretty sure are less than perfect.
No, it is neither disingenuous nor circular. If anything it as a bit of ad absurdum to illustrate how those most prone to label others "intolerant" are really saying that, by definition, to refuse to accept their own values (or lack of them as the case may be) is "intolerance." It never seems to register that tolerance is a two-way street. It has also been my experience that most biased, supercilious, "intolerant" folks on earth are those who like to toot their own horns about how free of predudice they are.
But anyway, I stand by my original point. Larger society has no obligation to accept nor accomodate someone else's lifestyle, legally nor morally, in the name of "rights" or "tolerance" either one.
So, for examples of forcing down the throat, we'll assume the 'you're going to hell' bit has been covered. How about some comments on bad news? "God works in mysterious ways." "God never gives you more than you can handle." "I'll pray for you." "Your faith is just being tested." (My personal favorite) "God helps those who help themselves." Good news? "Bless the lord!" "Your prayers have been answered." "God works in mysterious ways."
Other than the hell part, I get that it's well-meaning and I don't make a big deal out of it, but it's always in your face. I have met a few Christians who can discuss their beliefs without trying to convert me, but most take it as a personal mission to save my soul when they find out.
To tie it back into the original question, I'm pretty sure they'll get quite a bit of that here. Whether or not it becomes a big deal will be how they handle it.
Laura, I meant to add that many of your points here are well-taken. And ALSO, while I am thinking about it, as concerns the post I wrote yesterday, I noticed that I put a "eye-rolling" at a certain place. That wasn't intended, it should have been a smiley! So I apologize if it appeared I was being a smarta$$! As I hope I made clear, I respect your intelligence and ability to make an articulate point whether I agree with it or not.
But anyway, let me add that I too have had experiences with those people who go door to door to "spread the Good News" and intrude on my weekends of enjoying a beer or several and taking it easy! I try to be polite, but I confess (no pun intended! ) to getting a bit annoyed with what I can understand you labeling an "in your face" manner. I am sure they don't mean to be, but yeah, I definitely resent the unspoken attitude some have when I don't drop what I am doing to invite them inside to try and save my soul. That is, that I must be some heathen headed for Hell. So yeah, I can understand where you and Gretchen are coming from on this.
At the same time, I still stand by my earlier position, in response to the original point, that most people down here, when they ask about church attendence or whatever, are really not trying to be meddlesome, but just friendly and neighborly.
What about the liberal doctrine of diversity and tolerance or do cowboys and rednecks not fit into the Libs.agenda?
LOL Interesting point that brings to mind something that happened back in my "second time around" undergrad days. I minored in journalism and was news editor for the college rag, so spent a lot of time in the Mass Communications department. The head of the department was a flaming liberal and she and I would often get into heated debates (actually though, we really got along very well on a personal level).
Anyway, at a party one evening, she was carrying on about how, in her view, conservatives tended to be very close-minded and intolerant. But yet? In the next breath, after I had mentioned something about having had a few beers that afternoon at a local watering hole, she said something like "Oh Randy, I just don't see how you can spend time at that place. Nothing but a bunch of ignorant rednecks go there."
I asked if she had ever actually been there. No, she hadn't, but she "knew" anyway, and had no use for the breed. As they were all a bunch of backward hicks who hated black people and gays and etc. etc."
She didn't know any of them personally, but she knew THAT!
TexasReb, like Gretchen, I don't take offense. I enjoy a good debate that doesn't devolve into ad hoc attacks.
I'm not sure we'll agree on the tolerance issue. I definitely see your point about being called intolerant if you don't accommodate every whim. I've seen it (and complained about) before. Some people don't hesitate to cry discrimination or close mindedness if you don't agree with them. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the disapproval (and subsequent consequences) of some people for others who don't believe exactly as they believe.
Perhaps an analogy would be refusing to talk to anyone who is Christian. The argument could be made that they're cult members and so I don't want to associate with them. I would be basing my reaction on a single aspect of their personality and totally ignoring all the other good things about them. And it wouldn't be fair.
To me, that's intolerance, and the reverse is also intolerance. I don't imagine straight people in bed, so why would it matter if they're gay? Is that really so important that the rest of the person is devalued?
Honestly, my first thought when I saw this thread was, "Oh, this oughta be fun." There's always someone who can't bite their tongue... (Those are the ones I refer to as Bible Thumpers. I could always switch to "zealots" )
I agree that most of it is well meaning. I also agree that a biracial gay couple is going to take some heat down here. It wouldn't bother me or a lot of people I know, but how many would it take for the OP to consider it intolerable?
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... We don't ask you to participate in our lifestyle, just let us do it without interference.
Again, I revert to that ol' classic "Alice In Wonderland" where "Humpty Dumpty" said a word is "no more nor less than what I want it to mean." 
rednecks
