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In my opinion, there is only one urban area in Texas and that is Uptown Dallas. It is urban because it has an abundance of established retail. They are now in the process of establishing grocery stores in the area. To me, that is what is needed in order to establish a rail system. In and around the vicinity of Uptown, people won't need cars.
Well, then this is a chicken-egg situation: does an area need retail to attract the light-rail lines, or does the light-rail line come in first, as to orientate development on an urban level?
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Originally Posted by Yellow pool of piddle
As of today, the state of Texas is against this philosophy. Lot's of people work at auto insurance companies, vehicle manufacturing plants, and new car dealerships. I get the impression that while the state of Texas is slapping its citizens in the back of the head to stop them ftom polluting, they are also kicking us in the butt to continue using cars.
No, the State is against clean air and stopping pollution. That's why the court ruled against Houston when the city tried to enact clean-air ordinances. These cities should just be their own realms, and not be controlled by the state.
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Originally Posted by Yellow pool of piddle
In comparison to Uptown Dallas, both downtown Dallas and downtown Houston are glorified office parks. I don't know why DART and Metro insist on making them the prime connection centers for their light rail systems.
Because both downtown Houston and downtown Dallas have serious potential to evolve out of "office-park" status. In terms of design, the have the best continuous area for pedestrians (wide sidewalks, grid, etc). Furthermore, you must realize how compact the urban clusters of the Texas cities are compared to those in, say, the Northeast; what I mean is that the dense urban development in Texas downtowns don't extend to as far of a built up mid/high rise urban mass expanding out of the downtown.
It is clear that the Texas cities are still growing and focusing their development centers; for example, Houston can easily switch its density center from the current west-side to the east-side along the bayou.
then this is a chicken-egg situation: does an area need retail to attract the light-rail lines, or does the light-rail line come in first, as to orientate development on an urban level?
It's not a chicken/egg problem. Retail follows rooftops, and it has always been that way. The only time it is different is when the retail is massively subsidized and the slough-off of money attracts residents. Around army bases would be one example.
I think you can say light rail brings new development or enhances existing developments, but only where zoning allows it to. For example, the State Farm land was undeveloped for 20 years after downtown Plano and the Richardson Telecom corrior rose, and was zoned for commercial property only (which is probably why it hadn't sold -there was better commercial property in many other locations).
In my opinion, there is only one urban area in Texas and that is Uptown Dallas. It is urban because it has an abundance of established retail. They are now in the process of establishing grocery stores in the area. To me, that is what is needed in order to establish a rail system. In and around the vicinity of Uptown, people won't need cars. As of today, the state of Texas is against this philosophy. Lot's of people work at auto insurance companies, vehicle manufacturing plants, and new car dealerships. I get the impression that while the state of Texas is slapping its citizens in the back of the head to stop them ftom polluting, they are also kicking us in the butt to continue using cars.
In comparison to Uptown Dallas, both downtown Dallas and downtown Houston are glorified office parks. I don't know why DART and Metro insist on making them the prime connection centers for their light rail systems.
Because downtown Dallas and Downtown Houston (especially) have the bones to bring that urban energy back. No other part of Houston has this. Uptown Galleria will likely never become an urban area. At least not to the tune of Downtown Houston. Uptown is basically the Tyson's Corner of Houston. Not to mention, the thousands of homes, dozens of restaurants, convention center, sports facilities, etc that is in downtown Houston is likely a reason why Metro focuses its efforts there. It still is the center of the metro. Dallas is different.
Because downtown Dallas and Downtown Houston (especially) have the bones to bring that urban energy back. No other part of Houston has this. Uptown Galleria will likely never become an urban area. At least not to the tune of Downtown Houston. Uptown is basically the Tyson's Corner of Houston. Not to mention, the thousands of homes, dozens of restaurants, convention center, sports facilities, etc that is in downtown Houston is likely a reason why Metro focuses its efforts there. It still is the center of the metro. Dallas is different.
If you are speaking about a kind of tall / dense urban without retail, I think that idea is delusional. I consider things like parks and office buildings, empty office buildings in the case of downtown Dallas, to be secondary in importance to retail which is a prerequisite. The reason light rail has succeeded in North Texas is because of the central focus upon retail. Numerous TOD's are lining up along Central Expressway.
The growth in DFW keeps pushing away from the rail there. Even the station near State Farm's new campus had a drop in ridership as employees started moving in. You have to give DFW credit for having that many miles of rail but for the most part, they just take you to places further out (not necessarily more places, aside from the airports).
How far of a walk is the State Farm Campus from the DART station? About 0.5-1 mile? That's a pretty long walk for a transit rider, especially in Texas summers.
It turns out that the IH-635 bypass (not a loop--it's missing on the Western side) is the no-go line for transplanted companies and employees. Everyone seems to center in on Legacy, not Downtown Dallas, when they move to North Texas. It's more likely that Colin County residents take major thoroughfares (E-W) to commute to work rather than the freeway (N-S).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow pool of piddle
In my opinion, there is only one urban area in Texas and that is Uptown Dallas. It is urban because it has an abundance of established retail. They are now in the process of establishing grocery stores in the area.
You forgot about Uptown Houston. The shopping centers around the Galleria produce considerable trade, especially with foreign tourists. Gallery Furniture upscaled its reputation by opening a store in the area (and the newest standalone store here in Fort Bend County also reflects that). There is even new greenfield development with that shopping complex anchored by the Whole Foods.
DART didn't muck things up by running its lines to places that were already working. Houston did. For example, DART didn't run its line along Jefferson and Zang Boulevards in North Oak Cliff. Houston ran its line in the vicinity of the straight corridors of Fannin and South Main. If a corridore is already working, you don't run a lightrail track down it. Instead, you enhance it by running the line parallel to it a few blocks over.
Muck things up? So instead of having rail take you to places that people want to go, you spend billions in hopes that people will eventually want to go to these places..?
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Originally Posted by DabOnEm
The problem is that those airport rail stations, especially DFW station is very low. Under 900 people weekly IIRC. It's good that they're connected but the population doesn't utilitize it. Most likely due to the layout that makes Dallas the hub when it shouldn't be. It'll take more of these proposed rail lines being built to make a dent. I'd say Metro os ten years behind Dart and that's really only because the airports arent connected. All it'll take is the University/Uptown lines to match ridership. Then a short extension of the SE line to Hobby. Could probably see that in ten years if Metro pushes for it harder. Going to IAH will be the toughest part because of distance.
I agree if METRO is ever able to build the University/Uptown lines it will at least match DART ridership, and likely exceed it.
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Originally Posted by Yellow pool of piddle
The philosophy of Dart allows for infill. Stations can be added where they don't exist today. Four major emploment centers are connected together - downtown Dallas, downtown Fort Worth, Las Colinas, and the Telecom Corridor. The areas around the numerous luxury shopping centers are already working fabulous, so why fix them by running mass transit out to them? The TOD's of Mockingbird Station, the shops at Park Lane, and West Village were created by Light Rail, not destroyed by them.
The topic is about infrastructure. In the 90's, the philosopies of Houston and Dallas parted ways. While Houston chose to construct Beltway 8, DART chose to construct a Light Rail line.
I don't see how the philosophy of METRO doesn't allow for infill? Stations can be added to METROrail lines where they currently don't exist. And if METRO doesn't allow for infill then what do you call all of the developments that have been popping up along the rail lines/next to the stations..? I would hope DART connects more major employment centers than METROrail.. Its system is 4 times larger. Who said anything about "destroying" developments near rail, besides you claiming that Houston somehow "mucked things up".
The Philosophies of Houston and Dallas parted ways? I guess they "changed" in terms of Houston focusing its rail efforts on the inner city, and Dallas trying to make a suburban commuter system? But the Sam Houston Tollway had been planned for decades, with construction finally commencing in the early 1980s. The Grand Parkway construction started in the 90s though..?
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Originally Posted by DabOnEm
I looked at and mentioned both. For the amount of miles it has, DART is very underutilized by the people of DFW.
Definitely. Dart has 90 miles of track, about four times as much milage as METROrail. Yet only around 100,000 people ride DART each weekday, while around 60,000 people ride METROrail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow pool of piddle
In my opinion, there is only one urban area in Texas and that is Uptown Dallas. It is urban because it has an abundance of established retail. They are now in the process of establishing grocery stores in the area. To me, that is what is needed in order to establish a rail system. In and around the vicinity of Uptown, people won't need cars. As of today, the state of Texas is against this philosophy. Lot's of people work at auto insurance companies, vehicle manufacturing plants, and new car dealerships. I get the impression that while the state of Texas is slapping its citizens in the back of the head to stop them ftom polluting, they are also kicking us in the butt to continue using cars.
In comparison to Uptown Dallas, both downtown Dallas and downtown Houston are glorified office parks. I don't know why DART and Metro insist on making them the prime connection centers for their light rail systems.
So none of the urban areas in Houston have "an abundance of established retail"..? And if they're just now starting to build grocery stores, its obviously not very "urban", in your sense of the word.
You seriously don't know why DART and METRO "insist" on making downtown Houston/Dallas the prime connection centers for each light rail system..? I can give you 150,000 reasons.. Downtown is the largest employment center in each metro. The systems are alternate modes of transit, which are needed/utilized most during rush hour, when people are commuting to/from work.
Muck things up? So instead of having rail take you to places that people want to go, you spend billions in hopes that people will eventually want to go to these places..?
I agree if METRO is ever able to build the University/Uptown lines it will at least match DART ridership, and likely exceed it.
I don't see how the philosophy of METRO doesn't allow for infill? Stations can be added to METROrail lines where they currently don't exist. And if METRO doesn't allow for infill then what do you call all of the developments that have been popping up along the rail lines/next to the stations..? I would hope DART connects more major employment centers than METROrail.. Its system is 4 times larger. Who said anything about "destroying" developments near rail, besides you claiming that Houston somehow "mucked things up".
The Philosophies of Houston and Dallas parted ways? I guess they "changed" in terms of Houston focusing its rail efforts on the inner city, and Dallas trying to make a suburban commuter system? But the Sam Houston Tollway had been planned for decades, with construction finally commencing in the early 1980s. The Grand Parkway construction started in the 90s though..?
Definitely. Dart has 90 miles of track, about four times as much milage as METROrail. Yet only around 100,000 people ride DART each weekday, while around 60,000 people ride METROrail.
So none of the urban areas in Houston have "an abundance of established retail"..? And if they're just now starting to build grocery stores, its obviously not very "urban", in your sense of the word.
You seriously don't know why DART and METRO "insist" on making downtown Houston/Dallas the prime connection centers for each light rail system..? I can give you 150,000 reasons.. Downtown is the largest employment center in each metro. The systems are alternate modes of transit, which are needed/utilized most during rush hour, when people are commuting to/from work.
Central Dallas and central Houston differ today concerning what neighborhoods are the prime areas of the two. While Uptown Dallas has become the new downtown, downtown Houston still remains the focal point of central Houston. In central Dallas, Uptown Dallas is now growing back into downtown Dallas. Its area is now spilling over into Victory Park, the Dallas Design District, and the Turtle Creek neighborhood.
So, we have an apples to oranges situation here.
The number of specialty grocery stores in central Dallas is phenomenal.
How far of a walk is the State Farm Campus from the DART station? About 0.5-1 mile? That's a pretty long walk for a transit rider, especially in Texas summers.
It turns out that the IH-635 bypass (not a loop--it's missing on the Western side) is the no-go line for transplanted companies and employees. Everyone seems to center in on Legacy, not Downtown Dallas, when they move to North Texas. It's more likely that Colin County residents take major thoroughfares (E-W) to commute to work rather than the freeway (N-S).
You forgot about Uptown Houston. The shopping centers around the Galleria produce considerable trade, especially with foreign tourists. Gallery Furniture upscaled its reputation by opening a store in the area (and the newest standalone store here in Fort Bend County also reflects that). There is even new greenfield development with that shopping complex anchored by the Whole Foods.
A rule of thumb learned over the years is don't run light rail to an area of luxury shopping. It is already working fabuluos at both the Houston Galleria and NorthPark in Dallas. So, don't risk mucking things up by fixing them.
Shoot, don't even run a trolley line to Knox Street. Over zealous people spend hundreds of millions of dollars unnecessarily
In my opinion, there is only one urban area in Texas and that is Uptown Dallas. It is urban because it has an abundance of established retail. They are now in the process of establishing grocery stores in the area. To me, that is what is needed in order to establish a rail system. In and around the vicinity of Uptown, people won't need cars. As of today, the state of Texas is against this philosophy. Lot's of people work at auto insurance companies, vehicle manufacturing plants, and new car dealerships. I get the impression that while the state of Texas is slapping its citizens in the back of the head to stop them ftom polluting, they are also kicking us in the butt to continue using cars.
In comparison to Uptown Dallas, both downtown Dallas and downtown Houston are glorified office parks. I don't know why DART and Metro insist on making them the prime connection centers for their light rail systems.
There's also Downtown Austin as well as the UT Campus which is considered a very urban area as well.
There's also Downtown Austin as well as the UT Campus which is considered a very urban area as well.
Just consider the developing retail along the Katy Trail. At one end of it is the West End. Historic district and at the other end of it Mockingbird Station. Then there is 100,000,000 dollars being spent to redevelop Victory Park. An extension is being added to the Katy Trail as well which will allow pedestrians to divert off the path to walk to restaurants and stores within the Dallas Design District. There is also luxury shopping and lots of restaurants in and around The Crescent and The Harwood districts. About halfway along the trail, one can either walk to the West Village shopping district or the Turtle Creek Village shopping center. Finally, about a mile and a half further north is the up and coming Knox Street District. If retail is a prerequisite for determining what is urban, again, Uptown Dallas s the most urban area in Texas.
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