Will Texas be the last state to remove it's Confederate monuments? (Houston: school, live)

[Trainwreck20]

Originally Posted by Sollaces

History is history, the good, the bad, and the ugly. It's interesting how much of our history is wiped out and forgotten. The civil war was a apart of our history. Slavery was a part of our history. Are we going to be burning books next? Renaming streets and buildings because they don't set the right tone? How far will the riots and unrest go? Will we have another civil war?

As mentioned above, there is a world of difference between remembering and/or erasing vs. honoring. Any claim otherwise is completely ridiculous. If statues were required to remember, shouldn't we put up some of Hitler, Hirohito, etc? We wouldn't want to forget WWII, you know. And it seems like Einstein could totally slip out of our consciousness, as well, although I suppose he has a statue or two somewhere.

I have never thought about it that much, although it always seemed a little weird with some of the building names on UT Campus. On the other hand, at least they were directly associated with the university, so there is at least some other context than strictly the Klan or the civil war. Putting a statue of a civil war leader in just about every random city you can think of pretty much limits the purpose to glorification of the days of slavery....

[hound 109]

Originally Posted by L210

People are either ignorant or disingenuous when they say that this is about preserving history. If the South really cared about the history of the Confederacy, they wouldn't have waited almost 100 years to erect most of these monuments while they were in the middle of being sued and protested for civil rights violations. Considering that most of these monuments aren't very old, they aren't very historical. However, they do represent a certain culture...a racist culture. As you said, these monuments were erected with the purpose of intimidating black people.

In 2015, Trump said that the Confederate flag belonged in a museum, but he says whatever is politically expedient. Robert E. Lee, himself, was against Confederate monuments.

Robert E. Lee opposed Confederate monuments | PBS NewsHour

Since Texas made it very clear that it seceded over slavery (despite what Confederate revisionists peddle to romanticize that period), we don't exactly need to remove the monuments. We can just display them in their appropriate context. We can erect statues of beaten slaves and children being ripped away from their parents right next to the Confederate figures so that people will get a real history lesson. Otherwise, people aren't really learning anything by these statues just standing there.

Germans do a very good job at teaching their children about the Holocaust without glorifying Nazis with statues.

- Please provide a Link to what Statues you are referring to (in bold above) that were erected in the 1950s or 1960s. I agree that the dates when statues were erected, is a data point of note.

- Are there any other links that let us know what Statues are targeted (per this thread), where they are located, and when they were erected?

Posters are being pretty general & vague (& emotional) about this issue. Texas was a "Slave" state for only 15 years & slaves were confined mostly to the Eastern part of the State. Most of Central, South & West Texans didn't have (many) slaves (for various reasons).

Also, Texas didn't have a 100 year or 200 year antebellum history. It was a part of Spain for 150 years, Mexico for 15 years..... then it's own country for 10 years......& then (finally) a Southern State for 15 years. Only ONE Generation of Texans would have been in Texas (with slaves) & most of these slaveholders would have been found in the eastern 3rd of the State & would have represented a tiny portion of the population.

Spit Balling here:

But (IMO) a statue erected by the local Daughters of the Confederacy (with money earned from 10 year's worth of bake sales etc) in Henderson TX or Longview TX in 1886 or 1905......to remember fathers & grandfathers (of the local town's people) who were killed in battle (& buried as unknown soldiers) at Antietam or Chickamauga......is much different than a Statue of Jeff Davis or Nathan Bedford Forrest erected next to a County Courthouse in the 1950s or 1960s.

I'm willing to see the difference. ARE the Social Justice Warriors willing to see the Difference??

& if any person is reading this (& is getting ready to offer an opinion) but hasn't heard of (or isn't familiar with) say Antietam, Chickamagua (& frankly ten other battles) & doesn't know the difference between Nathan Forrest, Robert E. Lee (& some destitute farmer in Boerne)....& isn't aware of some particularly brutal and curious battles that took place in Central Texas....

History Undressed: True to the Union – Civil War in the Hill Country of Texas By Celia Hayes

....then their opinion as it relates to this topic is of no value. Do some research and come back when you can offer an informed opinion about Texas, Slavery, (Immigration) & the Civil War and how they are related.
.

[hound 109]

Originally Posted by Uconndoit

The fact these racist, slavery worshipping, confederate shrines are still allowed to stand in this country is eye opening. But then again, this is America. The very fabric of this country was built upon racism, genocide, and oppression. Anyone who still supports the confederate flag and statues still supports these frameworks, point blank, period.

Genocide?

That's silly. Slavery was an economic institution. Why would Slaveholders pay for slaves and then partake in Genocide? Goofy logic.

(the rest of your diatribe is silly too.)

Read some books or watch Ken Burns Civil War.....or if that doesn't help with the critical thinking, just go back to Sponge Bob (Family Guy might be over your head).....until Middle School starts up again.

[TheOverdog]

Genocide?

That's silly. Slavery was an economic institution.

Did you forget about indians, or native americans? that was the genocide.

[Dallaz]

I'm African American and really don't care if the monuments are removed or not. Taking them down is NOT going to end racism. Racism comes from your heart, not something that's physically tangible. The statues are just a reflection of what people felt or viewed to be morally correct.

People are having a debate about something that not going to solve anything. I'd rather waste my time with something that will produce widespread change.

[hound 109]

Originally Posted by TheOverdog

Did you forget about indians, or native americans? that was the genocide.

1. I was quoting a person who was referring to "Confederates" & the institution of Slavery.

2. Genocide - "Native Americans"(who came from Asia)/the Spanish/the United States & how it relates to Texas is a whole 'nuther topic. Texas had been a pretty brutal place for 200-300 years before any English Speakers arrived here.

3. The Manifest Destiny is a topic worth discussing (pros & cons), but don't confuse it with Statues of Confederate Soldiers.

[TheOverdog]

I was quoting a person who was referring to "Confederates" & the institution of Slavery.

No you weren't. The quote was "The very fabric of this country was built upon racism, genocide, and oppression."
I agree they went broad in a topic specifically about Confederate Statues, but they are mostly correct.

[jgn2013]

We shouldn't forget history.

So on September 11, 2051...we should erect a giant statue of Osama Bin Laden in Times Square NYC. It's history after all. Yes, his minions attacked America but so did the CSA. For every Confederate statue that is still standing, we should erect a statue of an Al-Qaeda operative. An enemy of America is an enemy of America, regardless of where they come from.

[Gunion Powder]

Originally Posted by hound 109

Posters are being pretty general & vague (& emotional) about this issue. Texas was a "Slave" state for only 15 years & slaves were confined mostly to the Eastern part of the State. Most of Central, South & West Texans didn't have (many) slaves (for various reasons).

Also, Texas didn't have a 100 year or 200 year antebellum history. It was a part of Spain for 150 years, Mexico for 15 years..... then it's own country for 10 years......& then (finally) a Southern State for 15 years. Only ONE Generation of Texans would have been in Texas (with slaves) & most of these slaveholders would have been found in the eastern 3rd of the State & would have represented a tiny portion of the population.

The length of time which Texas was a Confederate territory is irrelevant. Obviously, as there are more than 100 sentimental monuments across TX, which is as much or more than some Old South states. Jim Crow (the time period many of these monuments went up) lasted as long here as the rest of the south.

But (IMO) a statue erected by the local Daughters of the Confederacy (with money earned from 10 year's worth of bake sales etc) in Henderson TX or Longview TX in 1886 or 1905......to remember fathers & grandfathers (of the local town's people) who were killed in battle (& buried as unknown soldiers) at Antietam or Chickamauga......is much different than a Statue of Jeff Davis or Nathan Bedford Forrest erected next to a County Courthouse in the 1950s or 1960s.

I'm willing to see the difference. ARE the Social Justice Warriors willing to see the Difference??

& if any person is reading this (& is getting ready to offer an opinion) but hasn't heard of (or isn't familiar with) say Antietam, Chickamagua (& frankly ten other battles) & doesn't know the difference between Nathan Forrest, Robert E. Lee (& some destitute farmer in Boerne)....& isn't aware of some particularly brutal and curious battles that took place in Central Texas....

History Undressed: True to the Union – Civil War in the Hill Country of Texas By Celia Hayes

....then their opinion as it relates to this topic is of no value. Do some research and come back when you can offer an informed opinion about Texas, Slavery, (Immigration) & the Civil War and how they are related.
.

I know the difference and don't care. Why should I exactly?

[hound 109]

Originally Posted by TheOverdog

No you weren't. The quote was "The very fabric of this country was built upon racism, genocide, and oppression."
I agree they went broad in a topic specifically about Confederate Statues, but they are mostly correct.

You really want this thread to digress into Genocide?

The "very fabric" of every civilization since homo sapiens began walking on two legs...."was built on racism, genocide, and oppression"....so his comment isn't particularly profound.

& a few civilizations also used religion to justify the racism, genocide & oppression, so we can add religion to the fabric of (many civilizations) imperial quilt.


But who died and made you the thread monitor queen?

I was trying to keep my comments on topic (Confederate Statues)....but it seems that you've got genocide stuck in your craw as opposed to adding anything of value to the topic.