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Old 11-07-2020, 05:16 PM
 
Location: "The Dirty Irv" Irving, TX
4,014 posts, read 2,846,856 times
Reputation: 4801

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlionjr View Post
So it was founded as a society with THOSE THINGS in consideration but not on those things? LOL clearly semantics. The fact is America wouldn't be what it is today if it wasn't for the investment of slavery. Slavery definitely shaped the foundation of America. Slavery definitely influenced America. Was Slavery and Genocide the sole factors in shaping what America became? No but these 2 realities definitely played a huge role.
The difference between "With" and "On" is an important difference.

The system allowed for the ending of slavery without upending the whole political system. Heck, they even used the system, the 13th amendment, to legally end Slavery. If it was based on slavery we would have needed a whole new Constitution.

No one said slavery didn't have a roll in shaping America....slavery was one of the 1st or 2nd most important political issue at any given point from the founding of the country all the way up until the civil war.

Heck, the Quakers in PA condemned the practice in 1688.

If you read the founders actual writing around the time of the Constitution there was a general dislike of slavery at least on an intellectual level, even among slave owners. They just didn't have the balls to actually end it. I think thats terrible and no one is getting a free pass here, but it was pretty much universally believed, even among slave owners that slavery was bad...that is was a social evil and that it would end soon.

It was actually the 2nd generation of independent Americans ( the founders being the 1st generation for this example) Who began the intellectual movement that slavery was actually a "Positive Good." The invention of the Cotton Gin made slavery go from a practice diminishing in profits to one that was super lucrative again.

OK, so why does that mater? If you are a slave you are a slave regardless....yes, true, but had the slave owning founders had the attitude towards slavery that the slaving owning confederates had, they would have built a political system that would have made ending slavery constitutionally impossible.

The constitutions didn't mandate slavery in any way shape or from. The loop was intentionally left open to be closed later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlionjr View Post
Often times most mainstream historians leave out the role Slavery played in the American Revolution. That slavery was one of the leading causes for the American Revolution. But it simply was. The Somerset V Stewart case in the English court which led to the ending of slavery in England sparked White Southern colonist to support their Northern counterparts fight to gain independence from Britain.
Historians don't consider Somerset vs Stewart to be major cause for the Revolution because it was not. It did play a big role in countries using English common law, like the United States....in fact they began using it before the war was even over...

Slavery was not a major cause for the Revolution. The States with the Strongest support for the Revolution (New England) began outlawing Slavery before the war was even won. Vermont was the first in 1777, followed by Pennsylvania (yeah I know, not New England, Mid Atlantic) (1780), Massachusetts (1783) and Connecticut (1784).

That states that had large numbers of Loyalists were the Carolinas and Georgia...states that were dependent on slavery for their economy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlionjr View Post
Also American colonist didn't like the limits of western settlement put in place by the British colonial government. American Colonist pretty much viewed the land theirs for the taken and that Native Americans were simply in the way of that push. That was under British rule.
Oh I know. But of the 3 options: French, Spanish, English the Enghlish by far had the worst attitude towards Native Americans.

French wanted to trade with them, Spanish wanted to convert them and make them subjects of the Empire, and the English wanted them to go away. And yes, you are correct, English American Colonists did commit genocide. They were the ones handing out Small Pox blankes after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlionjr View Post
So you can say most of the founders expected slavery to end sooner than it did but slavery last over 200 years in this country. Also many of the founding Fathers owned slaves or invested in slavery themselves so I don't care for the contradictions. You can say that genocide wasn't one of the things this country was founded on but the ideas of Manifest Destiny reared it's ugly head time and time again to help expand the country to what we have now.
Yeah of course no one "cares for the contradictions." Its absolutely terrible that Jefferson was claiming all men were created equal while also owning slaves. The hippocracy was't lost at the time either. If you read their writings they openly admitted slavery was wrong....but they made limpdick excuses such as blaming the English for importing the slaves and for inheriting an institution.

Manifest Destiny is an interesting thing. Honestly it is more associated with American Imperialism of the Jacksonian Era than the founders. It wasn't a thing yet when the Constitution was a thing. Jefferson would have opposed it entirely.

Ironcily one of Jefferson's biggest accomplishments as president, one that later would play a big part in Manifest Destiny... the Louisiana Purchase went against his own ideals.

As far as the dealings between white settlers and Native Tribes it is far more complicated than "Good Guys" Vs "Bad Guys" Some land was stolen, some was legitimately bought. There were about as many different situations as there are tribes. It is a discredit to Native Peoples to assume they were all stupid and got tricked or that they didn't know how to act in their own interest.

Native American History is as interesting as it is tragic.

The over all theme of the relationship between white settlers and native Americans the US is responsible for many genocides. As an entity they were more often the bad guys than good guys. On an individual, on the actual ground level between individuals and groups it is more complicated with good and bad actors on both sides.
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Old 11-08-2020, 10:53 AM
 
74 posts, read 30,786 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by As Above So Below... View Post
I dont know about that. I find Americans in Europe to be far more annoying than Europeans that come here. I say that as an American myself. Americans for example will go places just to do drug (Amsterdam) or get hammered (Ireland) and just all out party. While European tourists do some of that in Vegas and Miami, they are more likely to travel for culture based reasons I find.
Nah...I find Europeans in America to be equally annoying, if not more so
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Old 11-08-2020, 01:07 PM
 
Location: "The Dirty Irv" Irving, TX
4,014 posts, read 2,846,856 times
Reputation: 4801
Quote:
Originally Posted by soletaire1 View Post
Nah...I find Europeans in America to be equally annoying, if not more so
Why, do you see them wandering around dressed like ****, talking loudly in the middle of your church annoyed you don't speak German or Italian?
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Old 11-08-2020, 01:25 PM
 
74 posts, read 30,786 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Treasurevalley92 View Post
Why, do you see them wandering around dressed like ****, talking loudly in the middle of your church annoyed you don't speak German or Italian?
Yes...precisely
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Old 11-08-2020, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Houston, TX
7,380 posts, read 4,064,288 times
Reputation: 10551
Quote:
Originally Posted by soletaire1 View Post
Yes...precisely
You didn’t pick up on his sarcasm and no European tourists don’t ever do that.
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Old 11-08-2020, 01:56 PM
 
6,060 posts, read 2,942,105 times
Reputation: 4874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Treasurevalley92 View Post
Why, do you see them wandering around dressed like ****, talking loudly in the middle of your church annoyed you don't speak German or Italian?
I've been to Europe several times. They don't dress much different from us, unless your basis for comparison is middle American boomers.
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Old 11-08-2020, 02:12 PM
 
1,914 posts, read 4,445,959 times
Reputation: 5277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Treasurevalley92 View Post
Or for a less extreme example take the Confederacy....they baked slavery into their constitution in a way that it was an essential part of the Ideal, instead of something that exists, but isn't essential.
Except, it was baked into Texas constitution too. That's of course a hard sell at the Alamo tourist trap, nevermind the rank and file modern day Texas jingoists with their revisionist view of Texas pride, whenever you highlight the General articles of the Republic of Texas Constitution. Made the US constitution seem enlightened given its age. LOL.
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Old 11-08-2020, 03:00 PM
 
74 posts, read 30,786 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by As Above So Below... View Post
You didn’t pick up on his sarcasm and no European tourists don’t ever do that.

Unfortunately, some do
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Old 11-08-2020, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Houston, TX
7,380 posts, read 4,064,288 times
Reputation: 10551
Quote:
Originally Posted by soletaire1 View Post
Unfortunately, some do
Lived in LA most my life and worked in places where I encountered tons of European tourists. Never seen it.
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Old 11-08-2020, 03:25 PM
 
74 posts, read 30,786 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by As Above So Below... View Post
Lived in LA most my life and worked in places where I encountered tons of European tourists. Never seen it.
We all have different experiences.
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