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Any tips or suggestions of prevention or mitigation of future damage to Surface Owner (only) sites where access to Mineral Rights are claimed?
Asking for rural Texas sites with intended Agriculture use. Do not want to put in too much effort, where someone who is not even paying the taxes on the place can come and destroy the site.
Any tips or suggestions of prevention or mitigation of future damage to Surface Owner (only) sites where access to Mineral Rights are claimed?
Asking for rural Texas sites with intended Agriculture use. Do not want to put in too much effort, where someone who is not even paying the taxes on the place can come and destroy the site.
I went thru this. Unless you are a *very* good negotiator, hire an experience O&G lawyer.
Surface rights owners have very specific (and limited) rights. And they can often be further limited or enhanced by contracts/deeds filed at the time the mineral rights are sold. A good lawyer knows all this, and can tell you what can and can't be done to your property.
I've been thru this, and without a lawyer, I would have been up the creek.
Any tips or suggestions of prevention or mitigation of future damage to Surface Owner (only) sites where access to Mineral Rights are claimed?
Asking for rural Texas sites with intended Agriculture use. Do not want to put in too much effort, where someone who is not even paying the taxes on the place can come and destroy the site.
Been though all this many times in oil and gas (on all sides of the equation) and twice involving gravel and sand.
Texas law in this area is very well developed.
Thumbnail version:
1. Rights-holders must give notice of impending exploration, road building, seismic or pipeline work etc. The rights-holder cannot show up, cut the fence and fire up heavy equipment.
2. The land-owner's best option to stop or slow things is via legal injunction. But alas it's a long shot that rarely does anything except causes delays. Although sometimes there really are unknown contracts, special circumstances etc. in play.
2.1. The landowner is always free to file a lawsuit if the rights-holders does great property damage (often due to fires), destroys crops (again fires), kills livestock etc.
If the places you are talking about are in one or a few counties I'd call the relevant county judge offices and ask them for guidance. Also if it's worth your time and $ pay a rights knowledgeable lawyer for an hour to go over how this works. I can tell you right now knowing your hatred of oil and gas you are not going to like what you hear..........but you need to know what is going on not what you want to be going on.
Been though all this many times in oil and gas (on all sides of the equation) and twice involving gravel and sand.
Texas law in this area is very well developed.
Thumbnail version:
1. Rights-holders must give notice of impending exploration, road building, seismic or pipeline work etc. The rights-holder cannot show up, cut the fence and fire up heavy equipment.
2. The land-owner's best option to stop or slow things is via legal injunction. But alas it's a long shot that rarely does anything except causes delays. Although sometimes there really are unknown contracts, special circumstances etc. in play.
2.1. The landowner is always free to file a lawsuit if the rights-holders does great property damage (often due to fires), destroys crops (again fires), kills livestock etc.
If the places you are talking about are in one or a few counties I'd call the relevant county judge offices and ask them for guidance. Also if it's worth your time and $ pay a rights knowledgeable lawyer for an hour to go over how this works. I can tell you right now knowing your hatred of oil and gas you are not going to like what you hear..........but you need to know what is going on not what you want to be going on.
All Taken for Good!
Thank You Very Much, EDS.
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for folks that may follow along later -- EDS and I have been around awhile. From my Point of View, EDS is a Waste-the-Earth-for-Debt-and-Profit-NOW type, and he sort of views me as a snarky jackass know-it-all, who is trailing along the Greta-forever-Fridays-for-Future meme-think. Funny part is I do not if I am really correct about him . . . but he is pretty much on target with me.
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EDS -- Maybe check me on some basics? I understand you are not a lawyer, etc. I am just trying to build up my basic knowledge base to start.
1. If Mineral Rights convey with the property, then this is not an issue, as I would not be intending to do surface damage without repair? I guess I am asking if adjoining property were undergoing mineral extraction, no one would have rights or claims of access to our place -- neither as pathway, nor as destruction, nor dump, etc?
2. If surface damage is done, (due to Mineral Rights held by others), what are the obligations of damage(r) to restore the surface?
3. Does the damage(r) typically pay surface lease or access fees to the surface owner?
4. I think I follow that certain uses -- such as a cemetery (if there are White Folks buried there, at least ), just picking that for an example -- can block pipelines. Does this also apply to blocking destruction due to Mineral Rights access? Say you planted 4 bodies -- one in each corner of the site, and declared the entire space a cemetery? (I am sort of joking, but just using this as a launch point example).
5. What about buying a site -- post-destruction? After Mineral Rights access has created (yet another) Scorched Earth barren wasteland? Has this typically destroyed the inferior Surface Rights ownership value to near Zero? (Looking for bottom-fishing opportunity)
6. Is it reasonable to (severely) discount offers on Ag or Timber type Real Estate if Mineral Rights are NOT conveyed? What are the typical discount ratios?
=========================
for folks that may follow along later -- EDS and I have been around awhile. From my Point of View, EDS is a Waste-the-Earth-for-Debt-and-Profit-NOW type, and he sort of views me as a snarky jackass know-it-all, who is trailing along the Greta-forever-Fridays-for-Future meme-think. Funny part is I do not if I am really correct about him . . . but he is pretty much on target with me.
=========================
EDS -- Maybe check me on some basics? I understand you are not a lawyer, etc. I am just trying to build up my basic knowledge base to start.
1. If Mineral Rights convey with the property, then this is not an issue, as I would not be intending to do surface damage without repair? I guess I am asking if adjoining property were undergoing mineral extraction, no one would have rights or claims of access to our place -- neither as pathway, nor as destruction, nor dump, etc?
2. If surface damage is done, (due to Mineral Rights held by others), what are the obligations of damage(r) to restore the surface?
3. Does the damage(r) typically pay surface lease or access fees to the surface owner?
4. I think I follow that certain uses -- such as a cemetery (if there are White Folks buried there, at least ), just picking that for an example -- can block pipelines. Does this also apply to blocking destruction due to Mineral Rights access? Say you planted 4 bodies -- one in each corner of the site, and declared the entire space a cemetery? (I am sort of joking, but just using this as a launch point example).
5. What about buying a site -- post-destruction? After Mineral Rights access has created (yet another) Scorched Earth barren wasteland? Has this typically destroyed the inferior Surface Rights ownership value to near Zero? (Looking for bottom-fishing opportunity)
6. Is it reasonable to (severely) discount offers on Ag or Timber type Real Estate if Mineral Rights are NOT conveyed? What are the typical discount ratios?
Just saw this.......I'm jammed up with work and projects..........will report back later today. That said, one of the projects is called, "Operation Conflagration." We repurposed old C-130 Air Force cargo planes into fire producing crop dusters in order to denude the land.......everything from hogs to bacteria gone in a flash, big trees require a second pass tho.
Just saw this.......I'm jammed up with work and projects..........will report back later today. That said, one of the projects is called, "Operation Conflagration." We repurposed old C-130 Air Force cargo planes into fire producing crop dusters in order to denude the land.......everything from hogs to bacteria gone in a flash, big trees require a second pass tho.
Thanks. Really.
No Rush. We are a "slow-and-steady-wins-the-race" operation on this end.
You know the proverb -- The ox is slow, but the earth is patient.
Even for Earth-Rapists.
And I know Earth-Raping and Wholesale-Life-Destruction is a Full-Time-Job, and even more than that -- a Special Calling, and I would like to say "Thank You For Your Service."
No Rush. We are a "slow-and-steady-wins-the-race" operation on this end.
You know the proverb -- The ox is slow, but the earth is patient.
Even for Earth-Rapists.
And I know Earth-Raping and Wholesale-Life-Destruction is a Full-Time-Job, and even more than that -- a Special Calling, and I would like to say "Thank You For Your Service."
I've been lobbying the family war-chief to change our family crest verbiage from the original Rune-War Hymn to something more modern........my suggestion is a rearrangement of thought from the great modern philosopher Lemmy Kilmister. It's a little long for t-shirts but perfect for flags and burial markers - don't you think?
I march before a martyred world, an army for the fight
I speak of great heroic days, of victory and might
I hold a banner drenched in blood, I urge you to be brave
I twist the truth I rule the world, my crown is called deceit
I am the emperor of lies, you grovel at my feet
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
(and in a strong closing)
My images is of agony, my servants rape the land
___________________
Short and sweet. In Texas mineral rights are dominant over surface rights - if you own the surface and I own the minerals, generally speaking I can explore and extract whether you like it or not. That said the mineral rights holder upon exploration and/or extraction must use reasonable care. FE, if a project requires 50 acres worth of road, parking, lay-down, temporary pipeline and pad area etc. I can't mark off 300 acres or a 100 for that matter. Reasonable also means I can't shoot, starve or thirst out animals, I can't wantonly destroy crops either.
If I act reasonably there is little need for remediation. If I tear something up I fix it so much as possible. FE in West Texas in particular when I build a good road the farmer/rancher/owner generally, but not always, wants to keep the road in place. A guy on a Cat D-9 with a ripper can scuttle a dirt road in no time. Paved roads are more of a challenge but I negotiate those as permanent. My line is usually, "Hey Jim when we are done I'll leave the road and a 10 yard pile of gravel for you to keep it up." That nearly always works.
Landlocked land and minerals are different deal. There is no specific right in Texas allowing me as a landlocked land or mineral owner access. Although nearly always it's easy to negotiate passage over third party land. Usually I'll build a great road with excellent cattle guards probably and give the 3rd party some cash up front and a tiny decimal interest 0.0001 or something.
All of this gets weird when there are many mineral and or surface owners.
The truth is other than pads, pump jacks and tanks assuming on-going production the normal city-slicker can't tell if minerals have been extracted or not - save sand and gravel anyone can see that. Mother natural cleans the slate fast. We have plugged and abandoned wells on our ranch that I have a hard time finding without GPS.
Across a lot of West Texas no-mineral land sells at a steep relative discount.
Any tips or suggestions of prevention or mitigation of future damage to Surface Owner (only) sites where access to Mineral Rights are claimed?
Asking for rural Texas sites with intended Agriculture use. Do not want to put in too much effort, where someone who is not even paying the taxes on the place can come and destroy the site.
Who is trying to do something to the land?
Or are you buying land where rights have been sold?
I've been lobbying the family war-chief to change our family crest verbiage from the original Rune-War Hymn to something more modern........my suggestion is a rearrangement of thought from the great modern philosopher Lemmy Kilmister. It's a little long for t-shirts but perfect for flags and burial markers - don't you think?
I march before a martyred world, an army for the fight
I speak of great heroic days, of victory and might
I hold a banner drenched in blood, I urge you to be brave
I twist the truth I rule the world, my crown is called deceit
I am the emperor of lies, you grovel at my feet
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
(and in a strong closing)
My images is of agony, my servants rape the land
___________________
Short and sweet. In Texas mineral rights are dominant over surface rights - if you own the surface and I own the minerals, generally speaking I can explore and extract whether you like it or not. That said the mineral rights holder upon exploration and/or extraction must use reasonable care. FE, if a project requires 50 acres worth of road, parking, lay-down, temporary pipeline and pad area etc. I can't mark off 300 acres or a 100 for that matter. Reasonable also means I can't shoot, starve or thirst out animals, I can't wantonly destroy crops either.
If I act reasonably there is little need for remediation. If I tear something up I fix it so much as possible. FE in West Texas in particular when I build a good road the farmer/rancher/owner generally, but not always, wants to keep the road in place. A guy on a Cat D-9 with a ripper can scuttle a dirt road in no time. Paved roads are more of a challenge but I negotiate those as permanent. My line is usually, "Hey Jim when we are done I'll leave the road and a 10 yard pile of gravel for you to keep it up." That nearly always works.
Landlocked land and minerals are different deal. There is no specific right in Texas allowing me as a landlocked land or mineral owner access. Although nearly always it's easy to negotiate passage over third party land. Usually I'll build a great road with excellent cattle guards probably and give the 3rd party some cash up front and a tiny decimal interest 0.0001 or something.
All of this gets weird when there are many mineral and or surface owners.
The truth is other than pads, pump jacks and tanks assuming on-going production the normal city-slicker can't tell if minerals have been extracted or not - save sand and gravel anyone can see that. Mother natural cleans the slate fast. We have plugged and abandoned wells on our ranch that I have a hard time finding without GPS.
Across a lot of West Texas no-mineral land sells at a steep relative discount.
================
Thanks on the Poultry. er ah, Poetry.
Examples are a good way for this -- thanks.
Maybe let me give you mine?
We are looking East (higher rainfall, easier water, access to markets, inland far enough to limit potential hurricane damage).
Our intent is a mix of custom veggie and fruit type crops, solar PV shade / production, probably some-to-all organic rated.
Concerns are a mix of soil fertility, some grid access (mostly electric powered equipment -- you know me), clean (and a lot of) water, and not having the site destroyed by future Earth Rapists.
We are looking East (higher rainfall, easier water, access to markets, inland far enough to limit potential hurricane damage).
Our intent is a mix of custom veggie and fruit type crops, solar PV shade / production, probably some-to-all organic rated.
Concerns are a mix of soil fertility, some grid access (mostly electric powered equipment -- you know me), clean (and a lot of) water, and not having the site destroyed by future Earth Rapists.
1. Assuming you plan on buying sans mineral rights?
2. Have you ID'd a place or two? You can visit the relevant courthouse(s) and look over past permitting and usually production. There's always a man or woman who knows their way around these documents. You could hire a lawyer or CPA firm to do so but I'm not big on being billed $500hr. when an intern being paid McJob wages pulls the info. during a 10 minute stop. Your call.
2.1. It takes some effort and sometimes money but you might be able to score access to any past 2-D and maybe even 3-D seismic surveys of candidate properties. If you narrow it down to an address or two and are comfortable I can forward that to a buddy in Plano who owns fantastic amounts of 2-D seismic data if he's got nothing a lawyer friend here in Dallas is a marvel at digging up this stuff - I kick his butt at golf every time we play so he always owes me something. Why this matters in a second.
3. At a certain point you are either going to have to pass, buy some land with mineral and surface control (that'll come at a premium, probably anyway) or play a little poker.
Poker:
1. Look around, like literally drive around the area and scour Google maps, looking for O&G activity. If there's no recent activity that means there is a lower chance of activity on your chosen land. In O&G development very often new activity tracks older development. If a neighbor or two has a pump jack or two or five that have been in place a long time that alone does not mean much. FE in Eastern New Mexico there are lots of areas with near-certain signficant un-tapped production. These areas sit idle because there is no close buy infrastructure - exploration is harder, extraction is harder and transportation is nearly impossible or too expensive.
4. If you play poker, buy the land and suddenly Big Jim's Earth Last Oil shows up to explore and maybe extract............in all likelihood your operation will be fine. Nearly all stories about O&G operations greatly defiling land are either false or wildly overstated. I've been in and around O&G since I became functionally-bipedal. Over that span I've been involved with three significant impacts on land none of those three would even slow an operation like you are planning and know of several more but the stories about tap water burning and what not are nearly all false or faked.
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), just picking that for an example -- can block pipelines. Does this also apply to blocking destruction due to Mineral Rights access? Say you planted 4 bodies -- one in each corner of the site, and declared the entire space a cemetery? (I am sort of joking, but just using this as a launch point example).
