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I think so. What do you guys think? Also, I must say that unlike some of you, I believe that all of the Toll Roads in Texas will be FREE once they are paid off. Of course, if it were up to people like the idiot who runs tollroadnews.com, all of the freeways in this great nation would be tolled.
I don't care what anyone says, you can't convince me that toll roads are good in ANY situation, especially when a state like TX or OK keeps building them.
I think that toll roads have a place, but it's a very limited place. For example, I think the Dallas North Tollway and Hardy Toll Road in Houston are good ones. They roughly parallel existing roads but are worth paying for either because of being a little more direct or having presumably lower levels of congestion.
What I don't like is toll roads cutting off an area, like Plano, surrounded by toll roads on three sides, or when they degrade existing roads to try to get traffic onto toll roads, like US 183 north of Lockhart.
The current growing infestation of toll roads around Texas is caused by political cowardice. Politicians want to provide roads, but don't want to tax people what it costs to build them. Instead of taxing people an extra $75 or so per year, they charge a few people thousands of dollars per year in tolls just because they're unfortunate enough to need to get somewhere the toll roads go to. It's the same problem that drives the national debt, spending money and not imposing a commensurate level of taxation. They get roads built, and get to point to progress, but the roads cost so much people don't want to use them. I'd love to see how traffic in Austin would be affected if the tolls were removed from 130. I doubt if it would fully fix 35 due to all the local traffic, but it would certainly make a difference. It's unfortunate that collecting tolls is more important than improving traffic conditions.
Depends on the toll road of course. Down here in Houston, we have several, and some should be tolled while others shouldn't be. In general, I think roads that serve a large, general area should not be toll roads. Sam Houston/Beltway 8 is an example of a road that serves the whole area that is tolled but probably shouldn't be.
On the other hand, I have no problems with toll roads that provide faster and more convenient access to a relatively small number of people. For example, the FB Toll Road serves a very niche group of people. The Westpark Tollway arguably should be a toll road as well since it runs parallel to I-10, only further south.
TL;DR version: If the road only benefits a relatively small group of people, I have no problems with tolls. It's the toll roads that are are primary thoroughfares that are questionable.
Depends on the toll road of course. Down here in Houston, we have several, and some should be tolled while others shouldn't be. In general, I think roads that serve a large, general area should not be toll roads. Sam Houston/Beltway 8 is an example of a road that serves the whole area that is tolled but probably shouldn't be.
On the other hand, I have no problems with toll roads that provide faster and more convenient access to a relatively small number of people. For example, the FB Toll Road serves a very niche group of people. The Westpark Tollway arguably should be a toll road as well since it runs parallel to I-10, only further south.
TL;DR version: If the road only benefits a relatively small group of people, I have no problems with tolls. It's the toll roads that are are primary thoroughfares that are questionable.
I agree with this. Several of the new main thoroughfares in north Texas are tolled. I'm glad I don't live in those areas; otherwise I'd probably pay hundreds if not thousands in tolls every year.
The toll roads of today will never be free because today's definition of "toll road" is fundamentally different.
Toll roads used to be built with toll bonds, and the toll revenue collected was used to pay off the bonds. Once the bonds were paid off, the toll booths came down.
Nowadays toll roads are an investment scam...er scheme. Company A comes along and promises to build a road with private money. The company and the state work out sweetheart, back-room deals that heavily favor the company. In addition to kicking in a portion of the construction costs, the state agrees to give the company control over eminent domain, as well as guarantees that no alternative competing highway (tolled or free) will be built within a certain number of miles of the tollway. The state also gives the company exclusive control over setting toll rates. To sweeten the deal, the company usually gives the state an up-front cash payment and a portion of the toll revenue.
Now ask yourself, why would a private company do something like this? Because their $2 billion investment today will net them $20-$30 billion in revenue over the term of the lease.
Ultimately we're to blame because we're so tax-averse that we'll allow the government and a private company to come along and screw us as long as they don't use the word "tax."
The Toll Roads in TX are there for the following reasons:
1. The rest of the state legislature NOT from the major metro areas did not want to pay for roads in the big cities with their constituents' taxes. TX is a big state. Rural roads have to be maintained by LAW. That money comes ahead of big roads in the big cities. This is still true.
2. Texas suffered greatly from the oil bust and S&L crisis of the 80s and as a result the legislature is VERY stingy. Texas came very close to insolvency and it was a very painful time. The two pillars of TX taxation were very nearly destroyed - property values AND oil royalties.
3. Given 1 and 2, which are true today, still, the big cities needed roads to grow and the only way to find the billions of dollars was to toll them. The main toll roads in DFW area - DNT, PGBT, and 121 have enabled North TX to grow while freeing up funds for other projects. They are enormously successful.
4. NTTA, TXTAG, and HCTRA are all publicly owned toll agencies subject to mostly local county government. They are very well run. And constantly re-invest the money locally rather than send it to the state to be used somewhere else. This a a great deal for us all.
5. A few roads are being sold as concessions by TXDOT. Who ever buys these is a sucker. See below for more on this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescreen73
Toll roads used to be built with toll bonds, and the toll revenue collected was used to pay off the bonds. Once the bonds were paid off, the toll booths came down.
"
Actually, this is how almost all roads are built. The government agency will issue bonds backed by tax revenues. Taxes in later years will be used to pay off the bonds. This is how many state and local governments get in trouble. They end up with huge fixed costs for doubtful investments.
Quote:
Now ask yourself, why would a private company do something like this? Because their $2 billion investment today will net them $20-$30 billion in revenue over the term of the lease.
Ultimately we're to blame because we're so tax-averse that we'll allow the government and a private company to come along and screw us as long as they don't use the word "tax."
You are wrong on the financial stuff. Mostly because you have not read the news carefully.
Most private firms will not touch the TXDOT leases because the ROI is very, very low AND the payoff is at risk. You do not see bond sellers or investment banks going anywhere near this stuff. Neither the big pension funds nor the equity investors or the hedge funds are in play in this stuff. That should tell you how good of a deal it really is. They would rather build apartment complexes, pipelines, power stations, ports, data centers, and buy farmland than buy toll concessions. They are subject to Fiduciary Duty legal standards and rightly will not go near this.
Personally, I think its a great deal for TX. Give us the money to build a road to our specifications that you cannot take with you and take a 2-4% ROI over 30 years. LOL. Suckers.
The Toll Roads in TX are there for the following reasons:
1. The rest of the state legislature NOT from the major metro areas did not want to pay for roads in the big cities with their constituents' taxes. TX is a big state. Rural roads have to be maintained by LAW. That money comes ahead of big roads in the big cities. This is still true.
2. Texas suffered greatly from the oil bust and S&L crisis of the 80s and as a result the legislature is VERY stingy. Texas came very close to insolvency and it was a very painful time. The two pillars of TX taxation were very nearly destroyed - property values AND oil royalties.
3. Given 1 and 2, which are true today, still, the big cities needed roads to grow and the only way to find the billions of dollars was to toll them. The main toll roads in DFW area - DNT, PGBT, and 121 have enabled North TX to grow while freeing up funds for other projects. They are enormously successful.
4. NTTA, TXTAG, and HCTRA are all publicly owned toll agencies subject to mostly local county government. They are very well run. And constantly re-invest the money locally rather than send it to the state to be used somewhere else. This a a great deal for us all.
5. A few roads are being sold as concessions by TXDOT. Who ever buys these is a sucker. See below for more on this.
I mostly agree with this. However, I think it's unfortunate that people think that they don't benefit from a road and shouldn't pay for it unless they personally drive on it, regardless of whether they benefit from people driving on or products shipped along roads in other parts of the state. We need to realize that having an efficient transportation system is good for the whole state and whole nation, even for those who don't drive on every single road.
Many people have a misunderstanding that toll roads are run by private businesses for profit. There's one road in Texas, the southern portion of SH 130, that profits a private company, and there are express toll lanes under construction, but otherwise toll roads are run by public entities that benefit only public transportation. This being the case, I don't care for public non-profit entities charging "market rates" to try to maximize revenues. I believe that a public service should be provided at cost, not at the highest price people are willing to pay. I don't think toll payers should be buying roads for other people to use for free.
While I don't like for-profit roads built with government help (such as eminent domain), I do think Cintra got screwed on Highway 130. That almost useless piece of road was leased with the understanding that the Trans-Texas Corridor would eventually be built, making that road a part of something bigger, and getting Cintra's foot in the door for building other roads, but then the whole project was cancelled. Still, I'd love to see Cintra lose a fortune and make the whole idea of for-profit roads look bad. I don't object to publicly-run, priced-at-cost toll roads, as long as the general environment for highway funding is reasonable, but it doesn't seem reasonable when fuel taxes collected don't even pay for necessary maintenance. People in rural areas benefit just as much when the goods they buy are shipped efficiently through urban areas as they do when their rural highways are re-paved. Transportation is one of the most basic and critical purposes for which taxes are collected.
Depends on the toll road of course. Down here in Houston, we have several, and some should be tolled while others shouldn't be. In general, I think roads that serve a large, general area should not be toll roads. Sam Houston/Beltway 8 is an example of a road that serves the whole area that is tolled but probably shouldn't be.
On the other hand, I have no problems with toll roads that provide faster and more convenient access to a relatively small number of people. For example, the FB Toll Road serves a very niche group of people. The Westpark Tollway arguably should be a toll road as well since it runs parallel to I-10, only further south.
TL;DR version: If the road only benefits a relatively small group of people, I have no problems with tolls. It's the toll roads that are are primary thoroughfares that are questionable.
Many people have a misunderstanding that toll roads are run by private businesses for profit.
The implication is that private businesses are somehow wrong and that making a profit is wrong.Everything we do should have some positive ROI, otherwise its decline and collapse.
Its in human nature to take something most people know little about and then try to use that ignorance to gain political power. The key is to identify a pocket of ignorance and then speak to it.
The implication is that private businesses are somehow wrong and that making a profit is wrong.Everything we do should have some positive ROI, otherwise its decline and collapse.
I don't think that profiting off a public service is fundamentally wrong, but I think it usually isn't the most ideal solution.
The public sector gets the best return on investment when building roads; the return is enormous. We spend hundreds of billions of dollars on roads, and get trillions of dollars in economic development and commerce every year, most of which wouldn't be possible without roads. I suspect the public sector gets a much better return on roads than the private sector does. For the public sector, the public good is a return on investment, while private sector returns are more narrowly defined.
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