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((((TexasReb))))) LOL!! Of course we can disagree as friends. You embrace your southerness wholeheartedly, and therefore, all of your posts are slanted in that direction (and that is NOT meant as a putdown at all)...it's just something that you identify with very strongly!
Just as I, while I acknowledge Texas' very definite Confederate past, I see her as more a product of her western heritage--and European/Mexican as well! I identify with that more than I ever have the so-called South, especially after having lived a while in the REALLY "Deep South" state of Mississippi. You don't get any deeper south culturally than MS, AL, GA, NC, SC, et al......!
I take that ((((( ))))) as a return hug! I put on some Old Spice this morning...did you notice? *grins*
You know, hon, honestly? If we could ever agree that even the "western" heritage of Texas has a direct Southern lineage? (which is totally different from that of the states of the Midwest and desert SW and Far West) things might actually fall in natural line! LOL
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I knew that Houston accepted secession, but he didn't want Texas to join the Confederacy. How I wish they had listened to him instead of forcing him out of office after secession.
He wasn't really forced out of office. He was "deposed", which is different. Later, his eldest son and namesake distinguished himself in Confederate service and Old Sam was often a "visitor" (even though he had retired from public life) to Confederate encampments. He himself said, for all his attachment to the Old Union, that he stood with the South, as it was his native region and that was just the way it was. And he told his son, as I recall, something to the effect of, that Texas has decided her course, and your duty is to give your service or even life, if need be.
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I'll see if the library can get Lubbock's book...I have been aware of it for many years, as I requested to take Texas history at Tech (usually reserved for majors as Juniors) in place of the second half of American history, to satisfy the basic credits...and they allowed it! It was one of the best courses I ever took, but since it has been over 30 years ago, memory fades, LOL!! It is available at Amazon as a reprint, but I buy very few books these days, having had to get rid of a ton when I moved!
Lemme help ya, Texas sis, while you get it in hard copy (I need to do the same!). You can read it on line if you want!
Did you know that Lubbock also wrote[i] A Yankee Comes to Texas, 1840
No, I didn't...until you mentioned it. Interesting! Of course, as a South Carolinian, I doubt he considered himself a yankee! LOL
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There is also another book that I'm going to see if I can get, titled The Civil War in Arizona, by Andrew E. Masich. It deals with wartime in AZ, NM, far WT (Fort Davis, et al) and CA. It looks like an interesting read.
I can read about the south with a western slant....
Not really, DP. To be honest, when I first read it, it struck me as the rantings of a mad man! Next time you come down and visit us, I am going to hide the steak knives....
LMAO at my own sophomoric wit here...
*AHEM* But you KNOW I am just joking, my good friend!
ALL of your posts make sense and I am proud to call you a personal friend and yep, a fellow Southron! (to be honest, I had sorta forgotten about that term! LOL).
Anyway though, seriously, you are very correct in what you say as concerns migration patterns and, by extension, influence, and change/evolution into a given area and how it affects.
You are a native Mississippian, the state which ranked third on the list of those which furnished the most settlers to Texas in the pre and post-Texas Revolution and "boom era" (Tennessee and Alabama were first and second), so seem to be more comfortable in Texas than in Massachusetts, California or Wyoming in terms of natural mannerisms and such. Same as I would be in Mississippi than I would be, or ever was, in Kansas, Arizona, or Ohio.
They don't say y'all...coke means coca-cola and nothing else. Few have a clue about black-eyed peas, much less as why and that it is a revered tradition on New Years Day. And Fried Okra? Forget it! THAT one has no more recognition up north or out west than green cheese is in the man in the moon...
But yep, as you say too, Texas is so....well, so very TEXAN, in its own right....
You know, hon, honestly? If we could ever agree that even the "western" heritage of Texas has a direct Southern lineage? (which is totally different from that of the states of the Midwest and desert SW and Far West) things might actually fall in natural line! LOL
I see the western heritage as more strongly influenced by Spain (vaquero/cowboy)...which transferred to Mexico, when it in turn had been colonized by European Spain!
Rodeos, roundups, cattle, roping (lariat, et al) and most of what we associate with the west have their origins in European Spain! Look at all the county names, place names, cities, et al.....very strong Spanish influence, which transferred to Mexico...then to Texas.
There is no doubt that it was a mix of Anglo/southern and Spain/Mexico....Texas is what it is, quite a unique blend of all of these elements.
Being from the Trans-Pecos area, to me....the Mexican/Western influence dominates, rather than the southern, though it is still there! And, no, I'm not Mexican-American/Hispanic...I'm an Anglo who grew up 100 miles from the Texas-Mexico border!
Thanks for the cool link!! I downloaded the PDF file, but I don't think I'll print it out at this time, LOL!!!
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I see the western heritage as more strongly influenced by Spain (vaquero/cowboy)...which transferred to Mexico, when it in turn had been colonized by European Spain!
The thing is, the Mexican vaquero and Texas cowboy are different in terms of roots. The Texas cowboy has direct lineage to the Old South cattle drovers. That is where the stock came from. It was a drover tradition very different from the established herding and tending tradition back when "Texas" was part of Spain, or Mexico. Another example is that the Texas cowboys rode a style of saddle completely different than the Tejanos. It was called the McClellan saddle.
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Rodeos, roundups, cattle, roping (lariat, et al) and most of what we associate with the west have their origins in European Spain! Look at all the county names, place names, cities, et al.....very strong Spanish influence, which transferred to Mexico...then to Texas.
But the "west" you speak of is the western South! Not the same as the southern West, which is New Mexico or Arizona. The distinction is west vs. east, not West vs. South.
Heck, if we go by what you are saying, then most of what...even the name itself...of Mississippi and Alabama...traces to some form of Indian origins. Louisiana could go to France.
The point is, it HAS to start somewhere. We can't go back to the Old Country when tracing regional affiliations. If we could, then no part of anything would be part of anything.
And Texas', IMHO, starts from the time it was open to settlement by Mexico. If not? Then why start Mississippi's regional affiliation with not that it too originated as a French and Spanish possession? And Louisiana for sure as French.
Really? I honestly think that my g/f has it pegged pretty well right. She is a true Westerner, and while she is even envious of how certain aspects of Texas culture is "western" in many ways. Cowboy and rodeos and such, in particular. Much more so than Colorado, as it be. But that is is NOT to say it is a truly "western state" as she regards and defines the West.
To her, Texas is the South. Or at least more Southern than Western. And she noticed it the very first time she came down here. That even "rodeo" and such, it was just not the same. The climate was different. People didn't talk the same way. Food for sure. There was a whole different attitude outlook than the "West"....
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Being from the Trans-Pecos area, to me....the Mexican/Western influence dominates, rather than the southern, though it is still there! And, no, I'm not Mexican-American/Hispanic...I'm an Anglo who grew up 100 miles from the Texas-Mexico border!
Thanks for the cool link!! I downloaded the PDF file, but I don't think I'll print it out at this time, LOL!!!
I am definitely not going to disagree with you there! I would really like to know MORE about that area of Texas! It facinates me for sure.
Few have a clue about black-eyed peas, much less as why and that it is a revered tradition on New Years Day. And Fried Okra? Forget it! THAT one has no more recognition up north or out west than green cheese is in the man in the moon...
Sorry, but I have to disagree with this statement. MANY southerners migrated up north. My ancestors were all from the deep south...Louisiana and Mississippi. Though my parents were born in Chicago and Iowa, I was brought up on southern roots. We love corn pone (hot water cornbread), fat back, ham hocks, black eyed peas, neck bones, fried catfish, etc. My mom is elderly and lives with me, now, and that is her greatest joy for Sunday dinner...corn bread, black eyed peas, onions, fried chicken, okra, maters, peach cobbler...etc. We still do homemade ice cream. So...the people "up north" do have a clue. They took all of their southerness with them and passed it down to their kids. My sis cooks way better than I do in this area. All from scratch.
In thinking about the emotional reaction to this that I have (the mental separate), I suddenly realized that it is much akin, I suspect, to the reaction that those in the Southern States had when the North insisted that the Southern States were part of the union and had no right to secede or consider themselves anything else but subject to the Union.
We are not part of the South or any other Region. We are Texas, made up of all the people who LEFT those various states and countries in search of freedom of whatever kind. To claim us now as part of the very places we left is to deny that very important part of what makes Texas, Texas, and dishonors those who had the courage to bring us here (albeit in their genes).
The thing is, the Mexican vaquero and Texas cowboy are different in terms of roots. The Texas cowboy has direct lineage to the Old South cattle drovers. That is where the stock came from. It was a drover tradition very different from the established herding and tending tradition back when "Texas" was part of Spain, or Mexico. Another example is that the Texas cowboys rode a style of saddle completely different than the Tejanos. It was called the McClellan saddle.
But the "west" you speak of is the western South! Not the same as the southern West, which is New Mexico or Arizona. The distinction is west vs. east, not West vs. South.
Heck, if we go by what you are saying, then most of what...even the name itself...of Mississippi and Alabama...traces to some form of Indian origins. Louisiana could go to France.
The point is, it HAS to start somewhere. We can't go back to the Old Country when tracing regional affiliations. If we could, then no part of anything would be part of anything.
And Texas', IMHO, starts from the time it was open to settlement by Mexico. If not? Then why start Mississippi's regional affiliation with not that it too originated as a French and Spanish possession? And Louisiana for sure as French.
Really? I honestly think that my g/f has it pegged pretty well right. She is a true Westerner, and while she is even envious of how certain aspects of Texas culture is "western" in many ways. Cowboy and rodeos and such, in particular. Much more so than Colorado, as it be. But that is is NOT to say it is a truly "western state" as she regards and defines the West.
To her, Texas is the South. Or at least more Southern than Western. And she noticed it the very first time she came down here. That even "rodeo" and such, it was just not the same. The climate was different. People didn't talk the same way. Food for sure. There was a whole different attitude outlook than the "West"....
I am definitely not going to disagree with you there! I would really like to know MORE about that area of Texas! It facinates me for sure.
Hugs...?
LOL!! Hugs!
That even "rodeo" and such, it was just not the same. The climate was different. People didn't talk the same way. Food for sure. There was a whole different attitude outlook than the "West"....
That I do agree with. But that does not keep Texas from being a western/southwestern state. TX is very different from CO for sure, and was the 28th state (Dec 1845)......long before CO (Aug 1876) as the 38th.
As for cattle drovers....
Who imported cattle to the US....? And horses, too, for that matter? Spain!! Texas would not be what it is without Spain/Mexico, et al.
You'll have to visit the Trans-Pecos/El Paso/Alpine/Big Bend....you'll find it very different from most of the rest of Texas, and the entire area definitely has more of a "western" feel to it.
In thinking about the emotional reaction to this that I have (the mental separate), I suddenly realized that it is much akin, I suspect, to the reaction that those in the Southern States had when the North insisted that the Southern States were part of the union and had no right to secede or consider themselves anything else but subject to the Union.
Well, it sure doesn't sound like we disagree on that part of it! LOL
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We are not part of the South or any other Region. We are Texas, made up of all the people who LEFT those various states and countries in search of freedom of whatever kind. To claim us now as part of the very places we left is to deny that very important part of what makes Texas, Texas, and dishonors those who had the courage to bring us here (albeit in their genes).
Yes, we ARE Texas. Who amongst us denies that? But, when Texas, as a whole HAS to be grouped with a region, we are essentially part of the South. Not much of Texas can be disassociated from the South as commonly understood.
I am sorry, THL, but I don't understand what you are saying at all, in terms of historical continuity and the phraseology.
For gosh sakes, those who migrated to Texas from the southeastern U.S. did so for many reasons, (some fleeing a rope! LOL), but NEVER was it to deny their own roots. Anymore than a kid starting out on their own denies where they come from and what they are.
How does this dishonor Texas? I mean, to use your logic, would it be fair to say that those who left South Carolina to move west into Alabama and Mississippi decades earlier were motivated by any different reasons than those in the latter who moved into Texas?
No, they were Southerners moving west. Adventurous Southerners and yeah, in lots of cases....wellllll, As somebody once put it ", Texas was the place where Southern society sent their insane and embarrasing kin! LOL
But what evolved was an extremely unique Southern state. And also, might add, one whose Sons were the Pride of the Confederacy!
Sorry, but I have to disagree with this statement. MANY southerners migrated up north. My ancestors were all from the deep south...Louisiana and Mississippi. Though my parents were born in Chicago and Iowa, I was brought up on southern roots. We love corn pone (hot water cornbread), fat back, ham hocks, black eyed peas, neck bones, fried catfish, etc. My mom is elderly and lives with me, now, and that is her greatest joy for Sunday dinner...corn bread, black eyed peas, onions, fried chicken, okra, maters, peach cobbler...etc. We still do homemade ice cream. So...the people "up north" do have a clue. They took all of their southerness with them and passed it down to their kids. My sis cooks way better than I do in this area. All from scratch.
Oh, we don't disagree here. The point I was making is that if it is recognized it DOES come from Southerners migrating up north.
That even "rodeo" and such, it was just not the same. The climate was different. People didn't talk the same way. Food for sure. There was a whole different attitude outlook than the "West"....
That I do agree with. But that does not keep Texas from being a western/southwestern state. TX is very different from CO for sure, and was the 28th state (Dec 1845)......long before CO (Aug 1876) as the 38th.
Of course it doesn't. Not at all. But Texas is western and southwestern in a different way than is Colorado or Arizona. In the same way that Alabama is eastern different than Ohio or Iowa.
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As for cattle drovers....
Who imported cattle to the US....? And horses, too, for that matter? Spain!! Texas would not be what it is without Spain/Mexico, et al.
Correct again, but where do we start in considering regional affiliations within the United States? Louisiana and Arkansas would not be what they are without France.
Cattle, yes, started way back in the old countries and were imported. You are right. Same as okra did. Came from Africa.
But...both are staples of Texas in a way that is Southern in origin and evolution in the realm of Texas...
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You'll have to visit the Trans-Pecos/El Paso/Alpine/Big Bend....you'll find it very different from most of the rest of Texas, and the entire area definitely has more of a "western" feel to it. If Texas calls me home, it will be only to WT!
Better believe it. Love to!
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