Do Texas natives consider Texas the South or Midwest (Dallas: living, move)

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by solytaire

I see very little that Texas (even West Texas for the most part.) has in common with Arizona or New Mexico. If anything, the far extensions of the Panhandle have a good deal in common with Colorado and the Midwest..But other than that, I just think Texas is a very unique Southern state. Even when taking into consideration that each southern state, except Georgia, SC, Alabama, and Miss. with their classic Gulf Coast/Plantation cultures, has their own little uniquely identifiable quirks...(Oklahoma -- Indian Territories, Louisiana -- French/Cajun...Tenn/Kentucky -- Mountain...Virginia -- Colonial... Arkansas -- Ozark)


While it may be worth noting that its settlers came through the Southeast, and the settlers of the Southeast came through the North, and the settlers from the North came through England, and the settlers from England came through somewhere...I mean how far back do we really want go with that pattern?

I mean technically, using that logic, those who settled the Southwest or the Midwest came THROUGH another place as well, so their culture would have to be without merit as well (whats good for the gander, right?--)...but that doesnt mean they didnt bring with them and further cultivate a way of life that would go on to become recognized as culturally Midwestern or culturally Southwestern or whatever...

All I can really say for sure, is that the prevailing culture that has been established most consistently throughout the state of Texas bears striking resemblance (though not identical) to what is commonly recognized as Southern culture, in my opinion.

Excellent point and post, Solytaire (as usual). Texas was primarily settled by people from the southeastern United States and it is that culture which dominated. A people's way of life may "evolve" some when it is moved into a new physical/topographical environment...as it obviously did after "the War" with the westward moving Southern migration into west Texas...but the basic foundations of the said culture remain fairly constant. This fact has been consistently reflected in Texas history. That is, our being an essentially Southern state.

There is absolutely no empirical evidence at all that German or French or Spanish culture has the same influence on Texas as did the black/anglo settlers from the American South. Even the hispanic influence is a comparatively recent phenomenon when compared to its established presence in the true Southwest. To say that is not to disparage another culture -- hell, I am as appreciative and truly embracing and proud as anyone when it comes to that -- but to simply note a fact of bare butt history. In about the same way that...welllll...there is a slice of eastern New Mexico called "Little Texas". In fact, some cultural maps actually include it within the "Southern sphere of influence". The reason being that lots of Texans moved there.

But that doesn't mean Texans/Southerners played a major role in the basic history and culture of New Mexico. Because we didn't. That role was primarily Mexican, Spanish and Native American. I don't feel insulted or slighted by that in the least. Why should I? It is just a fact.

Much as some might want to re-construe Texas history into some fuzzy warm melting pot where all cultures played an equal role in its development and none emerged dominant is just ludicrous and has no thesis support at all.

Anyway, sorry to ramble, Solytaire...but to repeat again. Great post. You said it all very well, my friend!

Finally, time to sign off for the evening! Storms are starting to pop around here! Good night, fellow Texans! Y'all take care and have a good week. And North Texans? Pay attention to the weather, ok?

[case44]

Originally Posted by PT 3000

Hello Texas natives i'm from Georgia and was curious as to what part of the country would you all prefer Texas to be associated with, the South or Midwest, I personally think Texas should be labeled as the South but my neighbor from New Jersey says Texas is the Midwest, I know some of you will say Texas is Texas and nothing else but Texas did have slavery which gives it southern roots.

Midwest??? (*ROFL*) Looks like your Jersey friend either must have slept in geography class or needs to get out more.

[PT 3000]

Originally Posted by case44

Midwest??? (*ROFL*) Looks like your Jersey friend either must have slept in geography class or needs to get out more.

I could not agree with you more, I've been letting my friend read the reply's that I have gotten from you all and he hasn't really talk to me much the past few days, but he'll get over it.

[solytaire]

What I think is really interesting is that there is still no overwhelming national consensus as to which region Texas belongs. This is interesting because it indicates to me that though the majority of this country's population lives in the Eastern half of the U.S., and since California, Arizona, and New Mexico wouldnt dare claim us as fully Southwestern, it indicates to me that the majority of the country's population (The eastern half) perceives Texas as Southwestern in terms of direction ONLY (not culture).

Because if it were truly perceived as culturally Southwestern by the majority of the country's population (the Eastern Half), and not just in terms of direction, the census bureau surely wouldnt classify Texas as a Southern state, as it currently does.

This of course is just my pie in the sky reasoning though, obviously no scientific methodology behind it.

[TexasHorseLady]

Interesting, because in one of the other discussions on this Topic That Will Not Die, I found several governmental entities that had Texas mapped as part of the Southwest. Will have to go find them again.

[TexasHorseLady]

Okay, at least one school in Nashville, Tennessee, considers Texas to be in the Southwest Region, not Southern, and teaches that to their students.

The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service considers Texas to be in the Southwest Region.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica lists it as part of the Southwest.

The Department of Energy considers Texas to be part of the Southwest.

The USDA considers Texas to be in the Southwest region.

I could go on but there actually are other things I need to do today.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by solytaire

Because if it were truly perceived as culturally Southwestern by the majority of the country's population (the Eastern Half), and not just in terms of direction, the census bureau surely wouldnt classify Texas as a Southern state, as it currently does.

This of course is just my pie in the sky reasoning though, obviously no scientific methodology behind it.

Interesting angle on it, Solytaire, and the usual good points!

Strange as it might seem for me to say on this subject though, I never really put a lot of stock in U.S. Government agency classifications when it comes to a state's true regional affiliation. ...even when they support my premise of Texas being an essentially Southern state. The reason being that the latter (i.e. regional affiliation in the classic and traditional sense) is usually better understood as embracing long-standing historical and cultural similarities, as well as majority resident self-identification with the region.

On the other hand, many times government divisions will tend to align for strictly geographical convenience and be at odds with the historical and cultural in some of its inclusions and exclusions. And not just with Texas either.

For instance, the United States Census Bureau -- which you mentioned -- is the one generally used to classify the four major regions of the country, but the South here also includes Delaware in this realm (as well as Maryland and Washington D.C).

U.S. Census Regions and Divisions Map

Interestingly enough though, so does the Encylopedia Britannica:

the South (region, United States) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

Something else to mention is that many if not most times the government divisions do not use the term "Southern" at all (as in terms of constrasting with "Southwestern"). But rather, "Southwestern" and "Southeastern". And too, the Southwestern region often includes Arkansas and Louisiana while Virginia is sometimes excluded from the Southeast.

Here are a few examples of all this via maps:

USDA map of regional offices

USDA Food & Nutrition Service Regional Offices

Department of Energy

EIA - Natural Gas Pipeline System - Links to U.S. Natural Gas Pipeline Systems

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Department

Fish and Wildlife Service

There are some exceptions of course (such as those below). But even here, note the National Weather Service puts in the Carolina's in the East Region and New Mexico in the South! LOL

USDA Forest Service

USDA Forest Service - Caring for the land and serving people.

National Weather Service Regions

National Weather Service Southern Region homepage

But of course, whoever said government was consistent in anything? Still, you have to give them credit for not placing Texas in the Midwest!

[kuato]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

Are you saying folks from Up North have no accent?

Seriously, I think most of us Texans/Southerners KNOW we have an accent. And accentuated with an idiom of the same. I know damn well I do. Thick as Red River mud.

No doubt about it - and that is part of the regional charm. Even the evil Yankees are moderately aware of their respective accents. One can still find a good "Long Island Lockjaw" in New York that is immediately hillarious yet pathetically genuine. I am of the opinion that no accent is better than another, and even the gold standard of BBC "received" pronunciation rarely exists these days (God I miss Bill Buckley).

My observation was that, having been all around Texas, I have met an odd amount of San Antonio natives who have mentioned in passing conversation how their city has no accent - and often toss a barb towards residents of Dallas or Houston as being indecipherable. To my ears, a classic San Antonio accent has a bit of Southern mumble, a pinch of Dallasite vowel artistry, and a healthy dash of Riverside County Mexican stacatto. And it still has the je nais se quois that is distinctly Texan.

More relevantly, I have never met someone from Dallas or Houston, or really ANYWHERE, who took pride or even awareness in a supposed neutral accent. Perhaps it is some kind of projection mechanism - who knows. I just found it validating to find a similar comment here in this forum.

Anyways, long live the regional accents - nothing is more entertaining than drinking with a guy who sounds like the "Rich Texan" from the Simpsons.

[Metro Matt]

Texas is where the South meets Southwest.

The only hint of Midwestern would be in North Texas as Dallas feels very Midwestern to me with its geographical location set on a wide open, sparsely vegetated rolling black soil prairie.

[Exult.Q36]

Originally Posted by Metro Matt

Texas is where the South meets Southwest.

The only hint of Midwestern would be in North Texas as Dallas feels very Midwestern to me with its geographical location set on a wide open, sparsely vegetated rolling black soil prairie.

Dallas does not one bit feel midwestern than the man on the moon. I am not sure what part of Dallas you are referring to. Furthermore, Dallas has probably more history with racism and in equality than any other large city in Texas. I do understand that not many African Americans seem to be on city-data, but Texas has deep roots in slavery 3 million African Americans call Texas home and not one of them would call Texas part of the Southwest or midwest. The majority of the white and black population in the state of Texas roots came from the south.