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Old 07-24-2012, 01:59 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
271 posts, read 501,325 times
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I don't think I'm suffering right now, but my quality of life would be higher in Chicago, which is also a larger city with more to do. It's hard not to feel you're being ripped off if you're a Toronto native and you travel a bit.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:37 PM
 
242 posts, read 475,308 times
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I understand you can get more bang for your buck in Chicago for real estate. But real estate prices are not everything I look at. Toronto is a booming place, it's been this way for over 10 years now. So much growth (residential and commercial), and I like that. Crime is better in Toronto even if you compare bad areas of Toronto compared to bad areas of Chicago... I would much rather be on the wrong side of the street in Toronto. It's just a safer city overall. In a recent crime update by Statistics Canada released today, Toronto ranked among one of the top 3 safest cities in all of Canada.

Don't get me wrong, Chicago is great! It has tons to offer and would probably be cheaper to live in overall. But I just like the Toronto vibe. It's got a great feeling to it, one of the best in Canada (next to Montreal). The civil rights are better in Toronto. I have many gay friends, who can not only get married here but also adopt children and be protected against discrimination. These human rights movements in Canada started in Toronto. I like knowing that the place I'm living in is on the forefront of human right issues and protects against discrimination on the basis of race, gender, sexuality, disability, etc. Toronto just seems like the perfect blend of a business friendly city that is also socially progressive.
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Old 07-25-2012, 05:57 AM
 
16 posts, read 63,521 times
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Had a choice between moving to Chicago or Toronto. Spent 10 years in Chicago, so knew exactly where that path led. Chose Toronto. Wanted a multi-cultural experience, not a mid-west experience. My immediate neighbors include Koreans, Guyanese, Italian, Chinese, "generic caucasians", and Australians. Love it!

As cited, TO is stupendously expensive. I drive a SUV that takes premium gas. Be prepared to shell out $5.30/gallon I pay twice what I paid in auto insurance in Chicago and I got off easy...average is usually 3x what you pay in US. Haircut in a supercuts type place with tip is $20. Downtown Chicago was $16 when I was there..suburbs are likely cheaper. Food is expensive. I pay $78/mo for blazing fast FIOS compatible internet..that FIOS internet was $62 in US. Haven't yet gotten an electric (called hydro here) bill yet, so the jury is out on that one. Taking shirts to a dry cleaner for washing/ironing is a minimum $2 per shirt proposition. In US, I could find $1.25 easy. Of course, the big daily killer is 13% tax on EVERYTHING vs 8-9% sales tax in US...that doesn't include the higher income tax rates...nor does it include the fact that in Canada most things just cost more to begin with. Want a fun exercise? Goto Amazon.com and find something...now goto Amazon.ca and find that same thing again. Not only will it likely be more expensive, you will have to pay more in tax and shipping and generally wait longer (if it is out of stock) to get it

All that said, I love it here. A lot has to do with the climate (not weather). I'm prone to allergies and in South US where I was at right before moving here, allergies were the bane of my existence. Since moving...much better. Chicago probably would have had similar climate, so not a completely fair statement on my part to make. I guess I go back to what I started with: Do you want a mid-western experience in life or do you prefer a more multi-cultural setting. Good luck.
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Old 07-25-2012, 07:03 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 13,050,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anon1972 View Post
Had a choice between moving to Chicago or Toronto. Spent 10 years in Chicago, so knew exactly where that path led. Chose Toronto. Wanted a multi-cultural experience, not a mid-west experience. My immediate neighbors include Koreans, Guyanese, Italian, Chinese, "generic caucasians", and Australians. Love it!

As cited, TO is stupendously expensive. I drive a SUV that takes premium gas. Be prepared to shell out $5.30/gallon I pay twice what I paid in auto insurance in Chicago and I got off easy...average is usually 3x what you pay in US. Haircut in a supercuts type place with tip is $20. Downtown Chicago was $16 when I was there..suburbs are likely cheaper. Food is expensive. I pay $78/mo for blazing fast FIOS compatible internet..that FIOS internet was $62 in US. Haven't yet gotten an electric (called hydro here) bill yet, so the jury is out on that one. Taking shirts to a dry cleaner for washing/ironing is a minimum $2 per shirt proposition. In US, I could find $1.25 easy. Of course, the big daily killer is 13% tax on EVERYTHING vs 8-9% sales tax in US...that doesn't include the higher income tax rates...nor does it include the fact that in Canada most things just cost more to begin with. Want a fun exercise? Goto Amazon.com and find something...now goto Amazon.ca and find that same thing again. Not only will it likely be more expensive, you will have to pay more in tax and shipping and generally wait longer (if it is out of stock) to get it

All that said, I love it here. A lot has to do with the climate (not weather). I'm prone to allergies and in South US where I was at right before moving here, allergies were the bane of my existence. Since moving...much better. Chicago probably would have had similar climate, so not a completely fair statement on my part to make. I guess I go back to what I started with: Do you want a mid-western experience in life or do you prefer a more multi-cultural setting. Good luck.
I don't think it is fair to say "Chicago is just a midwestern city". Chicago is very multicultural, cosmopolitan and vibrant as well. And a much bigger and modern city as well.

Better safety and public education are probably the advantage of living in Toronto. But Toronto is really a hell lot of more expensive than Chicago, and I don't think it is justifiable.

About the 3X auto insurance part. I never understand it. Why does it cost so much to insure a car in Toronto? I guess it is mostly due to inefficiencies rather than anything else.

Last edited by botticelli; 07-25-2012 at 07:37 AM..
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:38 AM
 
1,218 posts, read 2,381,652 times
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[quote=travis3000;25324322]I understand you can get more bang for your buck in Chicago for real estate. But real estate prices are not everything I look at. Toronto is a booming place, it's been this way for over 10 years now. So much growth (residential and commercial), and I like that. Crime is better in Toronto even if you compare bad areas of Toronto compared to bad areas of Chicago... I would much rather be on the wrong side of the street in Toronto. It's just a safer city overall. In a recent crime update by Statistics Canada released today, Toronto ranked among one of the top 3 safest cities in all of Canada.

So for a higher cost of living, you said Toronto is better because it’s booming, has lower crime, and more gay marriage/civil rights. All your reasons, as described below, don’t pass the logic test when it comes to picking one city over the other. There’s nothing wrong with liking Toronto more than Chicago but the reasons you gave were not supportable. If you had given subjective reasons like you want to live around more of a certain ethnic group that is not well represented in Chicago in a more mosaic setting, I couldn’t argue with it, but the reasons you gave were just plain inaccurate and/or irrelevant which leads me to believe you are not being objective, you are being promotional/biased like a real agent or used car salesman.

Booming – Toronto is not “booming”, Asia is “booming”. Really, do you sell real estate for a living? Seriously, they are building 5 years worth of supply in 1 year right now due to cheap money. Same thing happened in US, Ireland, Japan, Spain, etc. All crashed. Not saying we’ll crash the same way but there will be a correction, so there is no true boom happening from a fundamental economic perspective – no new companies, industries, economically productive assets, improved productivity or higher income levels, etc. Our debt per capita has now reached the American level and our overvalued housing has the potential to burn people on the fringe, people who think they can be landlords, and hardworking Canadians with flat incomes who can’t buy a decent home to start a life and family. This is not a good thing for society and nothing to be proud of but the media portrays it to be a good thing and this has created a false sense of security to many. The government knows it and wants it to stop and has flat out said they need to bring the overvalued market down. The growth engine of this country is out west, not in Toronto, and that’s basically the pillar that can hold Canada up. Google the Institute of Competitiveness and Prosperity and read the latest report. This is stuff people in business, economics and politics know about but the general population is oblivious to – the conclusion is that Ontario/Toronto has been a laggard economically and our productivity gap has actually got worse over the past 10 years compared to every US state/city. So basically, this booming assumption is not true.

Crime – This is not relevant. I would take Jane+Finch over the South Side any day but unless we really live in these areas, it’s not relevant to day to day life. In fact, the way this year has been going, it seems more dangerous to be an innocent bystander in Toronto than in Chicago b/c at least they keep their shootings to their targets. Gangsters/punks in Toronto are extremely stupid to do what they do with their public shootings. If you do this, there is a 100% chance of getting caught and you turn everyone’s attention on yourself, your buddies, and your trade – we must have the dumbest gangsters/punks in North America.

Gay marriage – Not relevant. Same sex marriage is legal in Chicago but of course, it was legal a few years after Ontario. But how is this fact a serious deal breaker in preferring to live in one city vs. another. As for human rights, this ain’t Syria we are talking about! The protection of your human rights is clearly not a differentiator in terms of living in either Chicago or Toronto in the year 2012, gimmie a break.
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:47 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
271 posts, read 501,325 times
Reputation: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post

About the 3X auto insurance part. I never understand it. Why does it cost so much to insure a car in Toronto? I guess it is mostly due to inefficiencies rather than anything else.
Regulation, plus a bunch of government-involved accident benefits stuff. You should see what they pay in Quebec.
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:53 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
271 posts, read 501,325 times
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Toronto's not booming at all. There are just a lot of cranes.

Wealthy foreigners are snapping up those green glass crawl spaces as investments or for citizenship and and turning our city into a city of renters with a ripe housing bubble that prevents them from entering the market. The gap between the rich and the poor is widening. People are actually poorer here than they've ever been, and much of that has to do with the cost of living in relation to income. Jobs just don't pay enough and there's a shortage of affordable housing. It's a bad recipe. Over the past twenty years, quality of life has declined quite a bit for your average citizen (and unfortunately not for the King West yuppies, who many seem to think make up the bulk of Toronto's population). The reality is that most people are working poor and/or underpaid and swimming in debt, particularly the yuppie sect who feels compelled to keep up with the Joneses in Chicago, NY, and SF. They go to work, buy expensive gadgets and clothing because they have to and **** away any extra cash they'd might be able to scrounge up on bottle service. Then, they all head back to their Liberty Village 350sf rental condo that's at least 200% overpriced, complain about lack of cash flow, and repeat it all the next day. It's a disgusting way of life.
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Old 07-25-2012, 10:36 AM
 
242 posts, read 475,308 times
Reputation: 233
[quote=johnathanc;25328740]
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis3000 View Post
I understand you can get more bang for your buck in Chicago for real estate. But real estate prices are not everything I look at. Toronto is a booming place, it's been this way for over 10 years now. So much growth (residential and commercial), and I like that. Crime is better in Toronto even if you compare bad areas of Toronto compared to bad areas of Chicago... I would much rather be on the wrong side of the street in Toronto. It's just a safer city overall. In a recent crime update by Statistics Canada released today, Toronto ranked among one of the top 3 safest cities in all of Canada.

So for a higher cost of living, you said Toronto is better because it’s booming, has lower crime, and more gay marriage/civil rights. All your reasons, as described below, don’t pass the logic test when it comes to picking one city over the other. (Who are you to judge what is logical for a person to pick a place to live?)There’s nothing wrong with liking Toronto more than Chicago but the reasons you gave were not supportable (based on who's standard?). If you had given subjective reasons like you want to live around more of a certain ethnic group that is not well represented in Chicago in a more mosaic setting, I couldn’t argue with it, but the reasons you gave were just plain inaccurate and/or irrelevant (are my reasons irrelevant just because you don't agree with them?) which leads me to believe you are not being objective, you are being promotional/biased like a real agent or used car salesman.

Booming – Toronto is not “booming”, (In North America standards yes Toronto is booming. That statement makes me believe you are being biased because you are ignoring reality). Asia is “booming”. Really, do you sell real estate for a living? Seriously, they are building 5 years worth of supply in 1 year right now due to cheap money. (They have been building condos at a very high rate for 10 years+ in Toronto. So no it's not 5 years of supply). Same thing happened in US, Ireland, Japan, Spain, etc. All crashed. Not saying we’ll crash the same way but there will be a correction, so there is no true boom happening from a fundamental economic perspective – no new companies, industries, economically productive assets, improved productivity or higher income levels, etc. Our debt per capita has now reached the American level and our overvalued housing has the potential to burn people on the fringe, people who think they can be landlords, and hardworking Canadians with flat incomes who can’t buy a decent home to start a life and family. This is not a good thing for society and nothing to be proud of but the media portrays it to be a good thing and this has created a false sense of security to many. The government knows it and wants it to stop and has flat out said they need to bring the overvalued market down (RBC just came out with a report which stated the entire condo bubble is a myth so it depends what person you are talking to). The growth engine of this country is out west, not in Toronto, and that’s basically the pillar that can hold Canada up.(Yes Alberta was LUCKY enough to be sitting on a huge oil reserve. It's about time somewhere other than Ontario and Quebec took the economic reins for a little while. Ontario supported Alberta for 100+ years. People often forget history and can get cocky in the moment). Google the Institute of Competitiveness and Prosperity and read the latest report. This is stuff people in business, economics and politics know about but the general population is oblivious to – the conclusion is that Ontario/Toronto has been a laggard economically and our productivity gap has actually got worse over the past 10 years compared to every US state/city. So basically, this booming assumption is not true. (When I said booming I was referring to the non stop construction, new condo's, new office towers, businesses, etc. It gives the feeling that the city is constantly renewing itself. I was not talking about new industry moving in. However, there were two positive employment headlines made yesterday in the auto industry for the GTA which is a great thing).

Crime – This is not relevant. (For me it is. Maybe not to you.) I would take Jane+Finch over the South Side any day but unless we really live in these areas, it’s not relevant to day to day life. In fact, the way this year has been going, it seems more dangerous to be an innocent bystander in Toronto than in Chicago b/c at least they keep their shootings to their targets (This years events are simply random acts and cannot be mistaken as an everyday occurrence). Gangsters/punks in Toronto are extremely stupid to do what they do with their public shootings. If you do this, there is a 100% chance of getting caught and you turn everyone’s attention on yourself, your buddies, and your trade – we must have the dumbest gangsters/punks in North America. (that's your opinion).

Gay marriage – Not relevant. (maybe not to you. It's funny, any point I bring up is simply "not relevant" to you. You should realize that every person makes their own decisions based on criteria that matters to them. I'm sure your "reasonable" criteria would not be relevant to me. Get off the arrogant train). Same sex marriage is legal in Chicago (no it's not, only same sex unions, not actual marriage and there are no adoption rights). but of course, it was legal a few years after Ontario (Haha you literally make up your own facts to support your clearly biased opinions. A quick fact check shows that civil unions only became legal in Chicago in 2011, FULL GAY MARRIAGE was legal in 2003 in Ontario). But how is this fact a serious deal breaker in preferring to live in one city vs. another. (For someone who has many gay friends and holds these rights close to their heart, it's very important). As for human rights, this ain’t Syria we are talking about! The protection of your human rights is clearly not a differentiator in terms of living in either Chicago or Toronto in the year 2012, gimmie a break. (If you look at the human rights codes for both Illinois and Ontario, Ontario wins hands down. Of course people aren't being tortured in Chicago, but on little issues things are better in Toronto.)
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Old 07-25-2012, 12:40 PM
 
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[quote=travis3000;25330605]

With regards to your comments:

-It is logical to assume that for an average citizen that they would not exposed to the day-to-day crime of the South Side of Chicago, just as they would not be exposed to random shootings in Toronto. It’s logical to call a someone dumb who shoots randomly into crowds, not the wisest thing to do and has been happening a disproportionate amount of times in Toronto. It is also illogical to base an argument on a falsehood about “booming” economies, you rely on biased, mainstream media and select what you want to hear, just like the Americans did during the housing meltdown. RBC report? Really! Do you not see anything wrong the source? Do you know how the CMHC works? Two positive employment headlines…well crack out the Moet? You obviously don’t listen to Mark Carney and the Finance Minister talk or read/study experiences in other parts of the world nor do you understand the definition of what a “Boom” is as most the construction is condos and you keep changing the definition. We all have different education and training and I’m trying to share some light on how more sophisticated investors think for your benefit. And with regards to gay rights (and I support them by the way), it is logical to assume for the straight population (which is the vast majority) that the “main” driver of where they will live will not be driven what year gays obtained the right to marry or a civil union. Those are my assumptions and the basis of driving conclusions from them and they are not illogical or unfair standards.
-And calling Alberta lucky province that hasn’t done anything in 100+ years is ignorant. Toronto is lucky to be settled when and where it was and to have business shift from Montreal due to francophone issues in 1970s.
-As for gay marriage, I’m ready to admit I am not as up to speed on these issues as you are. I can totally admit that! I assumed you were not gay but a typical straight person who would not place an undue emphasis on gay marriage vs. civil union as a choice on where to live as compared to many other criteria. If that’s hugely important to you, then Toronto exceeds Chicago in this category hands down then.
-As for your human rights argument, I still think you are reaching here. Having one’s human rights compromised in any severe way should not be concern when deciding to live between these two cities which is what we were talking about.
-And I am not on an Arrogant Train! Three out four reasons you cited are not strong reasons and I’m telling you why. Can you admit that or must you continue to be positional. And the other reason (i.e. gay rights) is a more specific criteria on where you want to live and I think that’s cool. I was not arrogant to make the assumptions I did.
-I’m fine to admit when I’m wrong because that means I learned something but you have to admit that excluding the gay rights issue, you have not put forth a compelling reasons as to why Toronto’s higher Cost of Living is justified compared to a city like Chicago.
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Old 07-25-2012, 12:56 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
271 posts, read 501,325 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnathanc View Post
you have not put forth a compelling reasons as to why Toronto’s higher Cost of Living is justified compared to a city like Chicago.
That's because it isn't. We're getting gouged across the board here.
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