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Old 09-25-2015, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,893 posts, read 12,367,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa2011 View Post
Toronto sprawls much more.

Also, keep in mind that there's a higher population in California overall, versus the region immediately around Toronto. San Francisco pulls a lot of visitors, business people, shoppers, etc., from all over the region. That regular traffic in and out of the downtown area would give it a different type of frenetic pace.
The numbers don't support this however. S.F receives 17 million visitors per year (total International/domestic) while Toronto gets 25 million.. These figures for both cities include daytime and O/N visitors. Take into account the 25 million for Toronto was from 2012 while the 17 for S.F is from 2013. Even with decent natural growth since 12/13 Toronto would still get significantly more visitors overall.

http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/co...0071d60f89RCRD

San Francisco Travel Association releases 2013 economic impact figures | San Francisco, CA

I also don't agree with you about the frenetic pace of S.F vs Toronto - I just don't see it being more in S.F.. Population and population density not including visitors also wouldn't show this and combined with visitors I just don't think the observation that the pace, ped traffic or overall busy feel of S.F is greater than that of Toronto. Not to mention, Toronto's DT core alone is growing at more than 12K per year vs the entire city of S.F which is growing at 10K per year. If DT Toronto is growing by more than 12K per year the S.F city equiv would be Old Toronto which would be growing quite a bit more than 12K (just DT core).
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Old 09-25-2015, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Toronto
643 posts, read 748,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThroatGuzzler View Post
Thats a completeley subjective arguement. There's plenty of people that think Toronto's more urban than SF... It's personal opinion.
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Old 09-26-2015, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
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Main thing to keep in mind is to mostly look at downtown Toronto when comparing to SF because downtown Toronto covers a larger area that is comparable in size to most of SF's highly urban neighbourhoods. DT TO covers a much larger area than what most refer to as DT SF (i.e. basically just Financial District).
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Old 09-26-2015, 11:47 PM
 
28,794 posts, read 31,469,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overunder12 View Post
It's interesting, considering that Toronto has a much larger population, that downtown San Francisco and its inner neighborhoods feel more urban and vibrant than Toronto's city center and its inner neighborhoods. I wonder what the reason behind this is?
San Francisco IS more urban/dense than Toronto. Limited land is a contributing factor, I'm sure.
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Old 09-27-2015, 03:06 AM
 
Location: Toronto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
San Francisco IS more urban/dense than Toronto. Limited land is a contributing factor, I'm sure.
Urbanity is a bit more subjective here but density is not and in the density department, NO S.F isn't more dense than Old Toronto (and is actually losing ground to Old Toronto and fast assuming we are talking about population density).. You can't compare the city of Toronto to the city of S.F - they are just not comparable - Toronto's arbitrary city boundary goes out a lot further than S.F's.

If we are talking urban area density than the Toronto CMA/GTA is more dense and larger an urban area than S.F + S.J MSA's combined.
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Old 09-29-2015, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Windsor Ontario/Colchester Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overunder12 View Post
It's interesting, considering that Toronto has a much larger population, that downtown San Francisco and its inner neighborhoods feel more urban and vibrant than Toronto's city center and its inner neighborhoods. I wonder what the reason behind this is?
Says who? Totally subjective, many would argue that Toronto feels more urban and vibrant.
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Old 09-29-2015, 08:59 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 12,391,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
San Francisco IS more urban/dense than Toronto. Limited land is a contributing factor, I'm sure.
San Francisco is NOT denser than Toronto.

You can't just compare density stats from Wikipedia. SF is a small city by land size. It simply didn't annex nearby cities such as Oakland and even Daly city, so having few suburbs of course makes its density look higher. But that's hardly the truth. To say Daly city shouldn't be counted as part of SF is like saying East York is separate from Toronto (they actually have similar land size and population). It doesn't make sense.

If you want a more fair comparison, you should compare SF city with the pre-amalgamated city of Toronto. They are surprisingly close in terms of density: SF has 120 sq km with 830k people, Toronto has 100 sq km with 800k (736k in 2011). There is little difference.

As to urbanity, I'd admit SF does appear a bit more urban. It has something to do with the zoning of Toronto, which has a more linear development in terms of retail, primarily along a handful of streets such as Yonge, Queen, Bloor, Danforth etc. Even central Toronto/downtown has quite many single family homes, compared with mostly row houses in SF, which makes Toronto look less urban. I honestly think it is a mistake and the city should allow more of those homes to be converted to retail - we need more streets like Baldwin and Elm etc. Complete residential streets in downtown are boring.
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Old 09-29-2015, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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For anyone interested in the urban area density of both Toronto and San Francisco (not city proper) simply urban area population and density feel free to look at this link.. It puts into perspective which is not only the larger urban area but also which one is more dense.

Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed

Last edited by Yac; 10-09-2015 at 07:50 AM..
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Old 09-30-2015, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,893 posts, read 12,367,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North 42 View Post
Says who? Totally subjective, many would argue that Toronto feels more urban and vibrant.
and its ultimately an argument.. I don't think there are huge differences in terms of urbanity or vibrancy between like places within these urban areas.. What I mean by like - S.F and Old Toronto.. If one were to say S.F alone is more urban than Toronto alone i'd have to agree because Toronto includes places like North York, Etobicoke, Scarborough etc and isn't just Old Toronto.. That however is not a fair comparison.. Obviously S.F city proper is more urban than North York or Scarborough - its not close but why would we be comparing an apple with a banana.

As for vibrancy between S.F and Old Toronto.. I can't really put a finger on which one is 'more' - I think they are fairly even.. If the question was which is more vibrant S.F vs NYC or Toronto vs Mexico city than the choice is more clear.. Personally though, I like Old Toronto's short to long term chances vs S.F simply because of solid and consistently greater population growth - particularly in the DT core but of course through Old Toronto as well.
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Old 09-30-2015, 10:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
and its ultimately an argument.. I don't think there are huge differences in terms of urbanity or vibrancy between like places within these urban areas.. What I mean by like - S.F and Old Toronto.. If one were to say S.F alone is more urban than Toronto alone i'd have to agree because Toronto includes places like North York, Etobicoke, Scarborough etc and isn't just Old Toronto.. That however is not a fair comparison.. Obviously S.F city proper is more urban than North York or Scarborough - its not close but why would we be comparing an apple with a banana.

As for vibrancy between S.F and Old Toronto.. I can't really put a finger on which one is 'more' - I think they are fairly even.. If the question was which is more vibrant S.F vs NYC or Toronto vs Mexico city than the choice is more clear.. Personally though, I like Old Toronto's short to long term chances vs S.F simply because of solid and consistently greater population growth - particularly in the DT core but of course through Old Toronto as well.
I think SF will just do fine. People are moving there like it's the only city on this planet. Another improvement will be SF's future connectivity with rest of Cali, the opening of the nation's first high speed rail hub in downtown SF that will connect it seamlessly to LA. I just wish Toronto/Canada could get its acts together and revamp VIA Rail into something that actually resembles a 21st century rail service.
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