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So why don't you address the points I made a few posts back about blacks in the GTA rather than doing the ignorant thing and calling everyone racist if they dare question black people about their behavior and how its destroying their own communities?
I think it is "ignorant" to engage in a pointless discussion with someone who has already made up their mind. Sorry but I am not in the conversion business here.
You are operating under the assumption that carding is appropriate because black males disproportionately are listed as perpetrators and victims of gun crimes. If this is truly a crime fighting technique, then why does it not extend to other serious crimes? What about sex crimes, human trafficking, white collar crimes? What races are over represented as the perpetrators of those crimes and why are other races not being rounded up and questioned to combat those serious issues? See how ridiculous it is to attach race to crime?
The point of this at the end of the day is that the majority of carding interactions result in no criminal investigation at all or charges. Do you think that a policy that disproportionately targets innocent people regardless of race belongs in an equal and fair society?
The Toronto Police Services are one of the few big city departments that uses this tactic in North America. It is not good police work and is not accepted practice by other departments, so I think it is time for the TPS to evolve and join their peers on this matter. We surely do not want Toronto to be a negative outlier do we?
No one is asking for preferential treatment. You are underestimating the responsibility of the role he has taken on. I am positive the operational and budgetary responsibilities are significantly more important than giving a good speech.
We can disagree on Saunders' stance on the carding policy, but I don't think anyone can dismiss the fact that the man has worked his way up the ranks with 32 years of service and was very much a strong contender for the job.. He is the Deputy Chief in charge of Specialized Operations Command - clearly he would be a contendor..
Yeah its baffling but at the same time we can't forget the fact that regardless of his skin colour - he IS a product of the environment he is in.. With that said, i'm speaking purely from the perspective of it is nice to see more vis mins in a position of leadership in the city.. Baby steps ya know.
I am more than willing to give the man a fair shot at the job!
You are operating under the assumption that carding is appropriate because black males disproportionately are listed as perpetrators and victims of gun crimes. If this is truly a crime fighting technique, then why does it not extend to other serious crimes? What about sex crimes, human trafficking, white collar crimes? What races are over represented as the perpetrators of those crimes and why are other races not being rounded up and questioned to combat those serious issues? See how ridiculous it is to attach race to crime?
The point of this at the end of the day is that the majority of carding interactions result in no criminal investigation at all or charges. Do you think that a policy that disproportionately targets innocent people regardless of race belongs in an equal and fair society?
The Toronto Police Services are one of the few big city departments that uses this tactic in North America. It is not good police work and is not accepted practice by other departments, so I think it is time for the TPS to evolve and join their peers on this matter. We surely do not want Toronto to be a negative outlier do we?
Did you even read my previous posts? Where did I EVER say that I was in favor of carding or said that it was extremely effective?
Here's what I said in post #48
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I don't know if carding is part of the answer or is actually effective.
Here's what I said in post #52
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I didn't say carding was the answer and as stated in a previous article posted here, plenty of non-blacks get carded too so this isn't just a black issue.
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I'm not against stopping the carding, but what exactly will it have changed?
So please tell me where was I overwhelmingly in support of carding? I'm simply saying that while you can debate whether or not carding is effective, removing this practice changes NOTHING. Black males aren't suddenly going to be much happier and become less violent and criminal. They're still going to do the same crap they've always done just that they might be stopped by police less often while doing it. The main problem here isn't police practices that are mostly IN RESPONSE to black crime, its as I've said many black parents doing a pi$$ poor job of raising their kids and are churning out generation after generation of violent black thugs.
And also I would seriously like to know exactly which crimes that non-blacks are 'over represented' in the GTA? I'm willing to bet ABSOLUTELY ZERO when it comes to gun crime, murders and all types of violent crime. And for most other crimes I'm betting non-blacks are committing them at rates that are MUCH LOWER than is the average for their population size.
The bottom line is you talk about blacks being unfairly targeted by police, but yet you fail to understand that police are targeting blacks because they are the ONLY ethnic group in the entire city that is committing crime that is FAR OUT OF PROPORTION to their population size while every other ethnic group is committing crime at FAR LOWER RATES relative to their population size. As a police force, do you spend alot of time, energy and valuable resources on policing that part of the population that is committing very little violent crime and relatively little crime in general. OR do you concentrate your limited resources on tackling the part of the population committing the most crime, especially when it comes to violent crime and murder? I think anyone with half a brain would agree the latter makes more sense don't you think? So if blacks are that population that is committing the most crime, why are you defending them when you should be critical of them for continually failing their children and preventing them from constantly growing up violent and ghetto?
I have not been following this debate, but Max Sterling is right about at least one thing in his last post: there is no reason to think that ending carding, and racial profiling more generally, will have much of an effect on black crime rates.
What would have that effect is some lessening of the ubiquitous discrimination here to which blacks, and black men in particular, are subject.
(Still, the fact that ending carding will not have much effect on black crime doesn't mean that it doesn't harm blacks in other ways.)
That discrimination, I should note, takes every form imaginable, and is practiced in some forms by very nearly 100% of non-blacks here. Discrimination based on a fear of criminal victimization is not, however, among the most prevalent.
To the extent that black crime exceeds non-black crime, in other words, non-blacks are largely to blame.
There is a growing body of criminological work tending to this conclusion, work that connects discrimination to self-control on the one hand, and (lack of) self-control to crime on the other. And of course, discrimination can affect the well-being -- and hence crime rate -- of a group more indirectly through more familiar channels (such as lost employment opportunities). But Max Sterling will have none of it. Black crime is caused by poor parenting -- this is an absolute article of faith for him. Evidence be damned.
Torontonians know that they practice a variety of forms of discrimination against the black man. And so it is an appalling disingenuity for them to turn around and point the finger at him when he fares worse than they do.
Last edited by Leaving on a Jet Plane; 04-21-2015 at 02:47 AM..
What would have that effect is some lessening of the ubiquitous discrimination here to which blacks, and black men in particular, are subject.
(Still, the fact that ending carding will not have much effect on black crime doesn't mean that it doesn't harm blacks in other ways.)
That discrimination, I should note, takes every form imaginable, and is practiced in some forms by very nearly 100% of non-blacks here. Discrimination based on a fear of criminal victimization is not, however, among the most prevalent.
To the extent that black crime exceeds non-black crime, in other words, non-blacks are largely to blame.
There is a growing body of criminological work tending to this conclusion, work that connects discrimination to self-control on the one hand, and (lack of) self-control to crime on the other. And of course, discrimination can affect the well-being -- and hence crime rate -- of a group more indirectly through more familiar channels (such as lost employment opportunities). But Max Sterling will have none of it. Black crime is caused by poor parenting -- this is an absolute article of faith for him. Evidence be damned.
Torontonians know that they practice a variety of forms of discrimination against the black man. And so it is an appalling disingenuity for them to turn around and point the finger at him when he fares worse than they do.
I disagree. Toronto is one of the most multicultural if not THE most multicultural city in the world and because of that, I'd say that people here are HUGELY tolerant of people who don't look like and are of a different background from themselves. This doesn't mean everybody loves everyone in this city, but I've never walked into a business owned by someone of a different ethnicity and have them treat me vastly different just because I'm wasn't like them. And I haven't had any of my non-white friends complain about racism and discrimination in a very, VERY long time.
All you have to do is watch the crowd during the Raptors playoff games or walk downtown and see how well integrated we are here. We may not be all friends with each other, but at the very least we can live and coexist and be friendly with each other without much problems, except with a high number of blacks who can't seem to ever live peacefully and not cause trouble here. So please don't tell me Toronto is a racist city that discriminates against blacks, because people have done everything they can to help blacks integrate and get their sh$t together, but time and again they fail to do so and as usual blame others for their problems.
And if you really don't think bad parenting is the main reason why blacks not just in Toronto but most everywhere else are so messed up and violent, then much like most black people keep your head buried in the sand and keep denying it while putting the blame on the rest of the world as blacks usually do. As I've said before there's more poor non-black people living in the GTA than there are black people TOTAL here and yet you don't see non-black children shooting and stabbing people in the streets like blacks do so often do you? And why is that? Maybe because the parents of non-black kids generally do a MUCH better job at raising their kids and keeping them out of trouble? Nawww it can't be that right? >_>
In the end, though, there's only one reason why he was chosen -- and he knows it.
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Originally Posted by fusion2
We can disagree on Saunders' stance on the carding policy, but I don't think anyone can dismiss the fact that the man has worked his way up the ranks with 32 years of service and was very much a strong contender for the job.. He is the Deputy Chief in charge of Specialized Operations Command - clearly he would be a contendor..
I disagree. Toronto is one of the most multicultural if not THE most multicultural city in the world and because of that, I'd say that people here are HUGELY tolerant of people who don't look like and are of a different background from themselves. This doesn't mean everybody loves everyone in this city, but I've never walked into a business owned by someone of a different ethnicity and have them treat me vastly different just because I'm wasn't like them. And I haven't had any of my non-white friends complain about racism and discrimination in a very, VERY long time.
All you have to do is watch the crowd during the Raptors playoff games or walk downtown and see how well integrated we are here. We may not be all friends with each other, but at the very least we can live and coexist and be friendly with each other without much problems, except with a high number of blacks who can't seem to ever live peacefully and not cause trouble here. So please don't tell me Toronto is a racist city that discriminates against blacks, because people have done everything they can to help blacks integrate and get their sh$t together, but time and again they fail to do so and as usual blame others for their problems.
And if you really don't think bad parenting is the main reason why blacks not just in Toronto but most everywhere else are so messed up and violent, then much like most black people keep your head buried in the sand and keep denying it while putting the blame on the rest of the world as blacks usually do. As I've said before there's more poor non-black people living in the GTA than there are black people TOTAL here and yet you don't see non-black children shooting and stabbing people in the streets like blacks do so often do you? And why is that? Maybe because the parents of non-black kids generally do a MUCH better job at raising their kids and keeping them out of trouble? Nawww it can't be that right? >_>
Obviously, rampant racism can co-exist with people from a multiplicity of cultures living together.
What relevance is it how you, a white man, are treated? I am talking about how black people, and black men in particular, are treated. And why should I be concerned about how I am treated in a business as opposed to any other possible site of discrimination?
The point about Raptors games is simply inane, and ample proof that despite the vociferousness of your pronouncements you cannot be taken seriously as an observer about race in this city. If I went to a game in Houston, or Memphis, or Oklahoma City, would things be that much different?
The idea that "people have done everything they can to help blacks integrate" is so outlandish, so manifestly implausible, that I have to conclude that you an outright liar, a fraud of the most distasteful kind.
I have responded to your point about poor non-blacks in other threads. To repeat, non-blacks do not have the same experience here, no matter how poor they are.
I thought in an "equal and fair society" people are chosen solely because of their qualifications, not because of how they look...
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Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands
equal and fair society?
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