Rise in Police Brutality / Racial Profiling - Toronto PD (home, school)
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About a decade ago, the Toronto Police Service established carding, a controversial practice that disproportionately targets young black men and documents our activities across the city. According to police parlance, it’s a voluntary interaction with people who are not suspected of a crime. Cops stop us on the street, demand identification, and catalogue our race, height, weight and eye colour. Until early this year, these fill-in-the-blanks forms—known as Field Information Reports—also had slots to identify a civilian as a “gang member” or “associate”; to record a person’s body markings, facial hair and cellphone number; and, for minors, to indicate whether their parents were divorced or separated. All that information lives in a top-secret database, ostensibly in the interest of public safety, but the police have never provided any evidence to show how carding reduces or solves crime. They’ve also failed to justify carding’s excessive focus on black men. The Toronto Star crunched the numbers and found that in 2013, 25 per cent of people carded were black. At that time, I was 17 times more likely than a white person to be carded in Toronto’s downtown core.
Only one member of Toronto City Council showed up to push back and oppose the vote. Seems like we have found an advocate in Councillor Shelley Carroll.
Even Shelley Carroll voted for Saunders in the end though.
Of course this will be met with skepticism and of course labeling this young man a complainer or possessing a victim mentality. All I say to that is try living your life the exact way you are supposed to and being interrogated more than 50 times, for no reason. Then get back to me about if you would be bitter or not.
The fact that someone like Cole has done all the right things (Valedictorian, college graduate, journalist, no criminal record) and still is treated like a criminal in his own city should really make most sane people think. I can personally relate to Cole on many levels, but of course we are just exaggerating.
What relevance is it how you, a white man, are treated? I am talking about how black people, and black men in particular, are treated. And why should I be concerned about how I am treated in a business as opposed to any other possible site of discrimination?
Black people and specifically black males are treated the way they are treated because they are FREQUENTLY VIOLENT AND CRIMINAL AND NOT BECAUSE THEY'RE BLACK. Do you seriously think all non-black people were born hating black people? Or do you believe suddenly non-blacks woke up one day and said to themselves 'I need to hate a group of people and I choose blacks to hate on'?
When will you understand that people don't dislike blacks because of their skin, but because of their BEHAVIOR. If white people in Toronto suddenly became violent and criminal and the crime and murder rates skyrocketed among whites, do you honestly not believe that non-white people wouldn't start to dislike whites for their violent and criminal tendencies? Do you really not think people would start moving away from predominately white areas to keep themselves and their families away from violent white people?
The point is no matter what race/ethnicity it happens to be, if that group behaves in a violent manner and starts creating crime and unrest for a prolonged period of time, other people will take notice and their perceptions of that group will change in a negative manner. That's not racism, that's HUMAN NATURE. Anyone with half a brain and a sense of self preservation would see that a certain group of people has become too violent and hence it would MAKE SENSE to move away and keep your distance from them.
You yourself wouldn't dare live in Detroit would you? Does that mean you're racist towards blacks too? Or does that mean you're smart enough to realize that Detroit is a violent and dangerous city and hence you'd rather not live there and become a victim of crime?
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The idea that "people have done everything they can to help blacks integrate" is so outlandish, so manifestly implausible, that I have to conclude that you an outright liar, a fraud of the most distasteful kind.
I have responded to your point about poor non-blacks in other threads. To repeat, non-blacks do not have the same experience here, no matter how poor they are.
In Toronto, people and government HAVE DONE as much as they can to help blacks and to treat them as equals. There's never been much slavery or oppression of black people in Canada since they've arrived here and I'm sure you know that Canada was a SAFE HAVEN for black slaves who escaped from the US right?
And talking about the present, tell me what services and priviledges that non-blacks have access to that blacks don't? How about nothing? Black kids go to the same schools as non-black kids, have access to the same hospitals and government services as everyone else does. They shop at the same stores and malls as everyone else do as well. So pretty much everything non-blacks can do, blacks can do as well.
The ONLY reason why people like me hold negative opinions and are frustrated with many blacks is purely because of the crime and violence they commit. The day that blacks have crime rates that are the same as the rest of the 5.1 million non-blacks living here is the day that I will stop disliking ghetto blacks and have no ill will towards blacks in general. Its as simple as that. If you don't want to believe that statement then that's your problem and I can't help you with that.
Another time, as I smoked a cigarette outside a local community centre on Bloor West near Dufferin, a police officer sat parked in his car, glaring at me and scribbling notes. After five minutes of this, I walked over to his cruiser. “Is there a problem, officer?†I asked. The cop, a 30-something white guy, asked, “Oh, are you lost? You look like you’re lost.†His response was so ridiculous I almost laughed in exasperation, but instead I just repeated that I was fine. After a brief pause the officer rejoined, “Really? ’Cause you seemed lost.†I had to remind myself that I wasn’t going crazy. “I know why you’re doing this,†I told him before dashing my cigarette and going back inside. Whether it was motivated by ignorance, training, police culture or something else, the officer’s behaviour sent a clear message: I didn’t belong.
Reading some of the rest of the article he's clearly attributing things that could be due to his just being male and making it about race.
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Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands
Of course this will be met with skepticism and of course labeling this young man a complainer or possessing a victim mentality.
Personally if I were him I wouldn't be so much angered by how the authorities perceive me, rather what would bother me would be the circumstances that bring about this attention. He should be directing his antipathy towards those who it's really due, but I don't see that in what he's writing.
Black people and specifically black males are treated the way they are treated because they are FREQUENTLY VIOLENT AND CRIMINAL AND NOT BECAUSE THEY'RE BLACK. Do you seriously think all non-black people were born hating black people? Or do you believe suddenly non-blacks woke up one day and said to themselves 'I need to hate a group of people and I choose blacks to hate on'?
When will you understand that people don't dislike blacks because of their skin, but because of their BEHAVIOR. If white people in Toronto suddenly became violent and criminal and the crime and murder rates skyrocketed among whites, do you honestly not believe that non-white people wouldn't start to dislike whites for their violent and criminal tendencies? Do you really not think people would start moving away from predominately white areas to keep themselves and their families away from violent white people?
The point is no matter what race/ethnicity it happens to be, if that group behaves in a violent manner and starts creating crime and unrest for a prolonged period of time, other people will take notice and their perceptions of that group will change in a negative manner. That's not racism, that's HUMAN NATURE. Anyone with half a brain and a sense of self preservation would see that a certain group of people has become too violent and hence it would MAKE SENSE to move away and keep your distance from them.
You yourself wouldn't dare live in Detroit would you? Does that mean you're racist towards blacks too? Or does that mean you're smart enough to realize that Detroit is a violent and dangerous city and hence you'd rather not live there and become a victim of crime?
In Toronto, people and government HAVE DONE as much as they can to help blacks and to treat them as equals. There's never been much slavery or oppression of black people in Canada since they've arrived here and I'm sure you know that Canada was a SAFE HAVEN for black slaves who escaped from the US right?
And talking about the present, tell me what services and priviledges that non-blacks have access to that blacks don't? How about nothing? Black kids go to the same schools as non-black kids, have access to the same hospitals and government services as everyone else does. They shop at the same stores and malls as everyone else do as well. So pretty much everything non-blacks can do, blacks can do as well.
The ONLY reason why people like me hold negative opinions and are frustrated with many blacks is purely because of the crime and violence they commit. The day that blacks have crime rates that are the same as the rest of the 5.1 million non-blacks living here is the day that I will stop disliking ghetto blacks and have no ill will towards blacks in general. Its as simple as that. If you don't want to believe that statement then that's your problem and I can't help you with that.
I agree that people here "dislike" blacks -- overwhelmingly so. That is abundantly clear to me as a black man.
But I am not sure if you are saying that black criminality has given rise to a generalized dislike, or merely to a contextualized avoidance of blacks, particularly black men, in certain situations. If it is a generalized dislike, then blacks will be subject to discrimination in a wide variety of contexts, and no blacks, no matter how educated, articulate and law-abiding they are and known to be, will be safe. If it has given rise to a contextualized avoidance, then it will merely be true that when conditions are such that attempts at criminal victimization seem likely, and there is an absence of information to make individualized assessments of individuals' potential criminality, then in these situations, and only these situations, blacks, particularly black men, will be avoided.
So please clarify what exactly you are saying.
For my part, I said that discrimination in its various forms is ubiquitous here, but that discrimination based on a fear of criminal victimization is not among the most prevalent. So when I talk about how "black men are treated" it should be clear that I am not primarily talking about the latter kind of discrimination.
Also, in my view, the dislike of blacks here in quite generalized, but is not primarily rooted in black criminality. This, certainly, is what my experience as highly educated black man in typically lily-white environments would suggest. More generally, racism, as a general historical phenomenon, precedes such things.
Moreover, it seems that a generalized dislike -- and the discrimination that one presumes accompanies such dislike -- of a group based on its crime rates is far more problematic than a contextualized avoidance of a group based on the same reason. How can you justifying disliking me, and treating me badly, because my group has a higher crime rate, at least for some crimes, than other groups?
That black people can shop at the same stores, go to the same hospitals and get the same government services doesn't show that they are not subject to discrimination. (Even setting aside the question of whether they receive the same treatment in these stores, etc.) The limited nature of your list really betrays your ignorance of this topic. The possible forms of discrimination that blacks can be and are subject to extend far beyond what you have listed and include discrimination in hiring and promotions, in educational institutions, and in access to valuable social networks.
Last edited by Leaving on a Jet Plane; 04-21-2015 at 08:25 PM..
But I am not sure if you are saying that black criminality has given rise to a generalized dislike, or merely to a contextualized avoidance of blacks, particularly black men, in certain situations. If it is a generalized dislike, then blacks will be subject to discrimination in a wide variety of contexts, and no blacks, no matter how educated, articulate and law-abiding they are and known to be, will be safe. If it has given rise to a contextualized avoidance, then it will merely be true that when conditions are such that attempts at criminal victimization seem likely, and there is an absence of information to make individualized assessments of individuals' potential criminality, then in these situations, and only these situations, blacks, particularly black men, will be avoided.
I think its mostly context dislike in that if a black male dresses like a thug with a hoodie and jeans around his knees with no belt holding them up and speaks and acts like a ghetto black then many people would be wary of him. But if he dresses at least half decent and acts like a normal person, I doubt many people would have a problem with a black person like that.
For me I don't look at the black guy working at my local supermarket as a potential criminal or thug, but if I see a black male dressed like I described above and is walking down the street with an attitude then hell yes I would be wary of him.
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Also, in my view, the dislike of blacks here in quite generalized, but is not primarily rooted in black criminality. This, certainly, is what my experience as highly educated black man in typically lily-white environments would suggest. More generally, racism, as a general historical phenomenon, precedes such things.
What exact descrimination/racism have you experienced? I'd genuinely like to know.
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Moreover, it seems that a generalized dislike -- and the discrimination that one presumes accompanies such dislike -- of a group based on its crime rates is far more problematic than a contextualized avoidance of a group based on the same reason. How can you justifying disliking me, and treating me badly, because my group has a higher crime rate, at least for some crimes, than other groups?
As I said before, I DON'T dislike all blacks. Just the ones that cause all the violence and murder and crime. So NO I don't dislike you just because you happen to be black. But let's be real here though. Blacks are leading in practically EVERY category of major crime, especially when we're talking about violent crime and murder. No one comes anywhere close to them in those categories.
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That black people can shop at the same stores, go to the same hospitals and get the same government services doesn't show that they are not subject to discrimination. (Even setting aside the question of whether they receive the same treatment in these stores, etc.) The limited nature of your list really betrays your ignorance of this topic. The possible forms of discrimination that blacks can be and are subject to extend far beyond what you have listed and include discrimination in hiring and promotions, in educational institutions, and in access to valuable social networks.
I never said that Toronto is free from descrimination or racism, but in my view its minimal in large part because we are so diverse in our population and so people here are use to living around people of many different ethnicities and its why practically every major public event or festival here is attended by people of all different backgrounds and there's little if any problems despite all the mixing of people.
Also what I don't understand is why black people think that they're the ONLY group that has ever been descriminated against or something. A long time ago asians were looked upon with litle respect and as an inferior people, but instead of constantly b$tching about it neverendingly, they chose to work hard, get educated and become successful and dig themselves out of poverty to where they are now. Along the way asians showed that they were mostly peaceful and friendly people who welcomed non-asians into their neighborhoods and businesses and were more than happy to share their culture with people. This is why today not many people have a problem with asians or think ill of them.
Why can't blacks do the same thing? Instead of constantly whining about being mistreated, how about the blacks here work towards committing less crime and raising their kids right? Maybe if most blacks were able to do that, people would stop being wary of blacks and seeing them as ghetto and criminal because right now its pretty damn hard to do when nearly every week there's at least one shooting or stabbing or other violent crime that involves blacks.
Grace-Edward Galabuzi, an associate professor in Ryerson University’s Department of Politics and Public Administration, understands that the skepticism about a new police chief stems from very real and lived experiences He does not subscribe to the ideology that policing cannot change, but it is difficult for Toronto’s black community to throw their weight behind either Sloly or Saunders because they have not distinguished themselves from the status quo on issues that are important to the community, he says.
“[A black police chief] does have symbolic significance, but for it to be substantially significant, it would mean that before they become police chiefs, they send a clear signal that they are open to the arguments that the community is making on some key issues,” Galabuzi says. “And that’s just not there.”
I think its mostly context dislike in that if a black male dresses like a thug with a hoodie and jeans around his knees with no belt holding them up and speaks and acts like a ghetto black then many people would be wary of him. But if he dresses at least half decent and acts like a normal person, I doubt many people would have a problem with a black person like that.
For me I don't look at the black guy working at my local supermarket as a potential criminal or thug, but if I see a black male dressed like I described above and is walking down the street with an attitude then hell yes I would be wary of him.
What exact descrimination/racism have you experienced? I'd genuinely like to know.
As I said before, I DON'T dislike all blacks. Just the ones that cause all the violence and murder and crime. So NO I don't dislike you just because you happen to be black. But let's be real here though. Blacks are leading in practically EVERY category of major crime, especially when we're talking about violent crime and murder. No one comes anywhere close to them in those categories.
I never said that Toronto is free from descrimination or racism, but in my view its minimal in large part because we are so diverse in our population and so people here are use to living around people of many different ethnicities and its why practically every major public event or festival here is attended by people of all different backgrounds and there's little if any problems despite all the mixing of people.
Also what I don't understand is why black people think that they're the ONLY group that has ever been descriminated against or something. A long time ago asians were looked upon with litle respect and as an inferior people, but instead of constantly b$tching about it neverendingly, they chose to work hard, get educated and become successful and dig themselves out of poverty to where they are now. Along the way asians showed that they were mostly peaceful and friendly people who welcomed non-asians into their neighborhoods and businesses and were more than happy to share their culture with people. This is why today not many people have a problem with asians or think ill of them.
Why can't blacks do the same thing? Instead of constantly whining about being mistreated, how about the blacks here work towards committing less crime and raising their kids right? Maybe if most blacks were able to do that, people would stop being wary of blacks and seeing them as ghetto and criminal because right now its pretty damn hard to do when nearly every week there's at least one shooting or stabbing or other violent crime that involves blacks.
Your belief that discrimination here is "minimal" is dead wrong, and basis on which you believe it -- that "we are so diverse in our population and so people here are use to living around people of many different ethnicities" -- is ridiculous. (And partly false, since many white people, at least, live in virtually all white-worlds.)
People here, in my experience, by and large do not like black people at all, no matter how educated, no matter how well-spoken, no matter how assimilated. (And this is a city where there are a great many assimilation-minded blacks, something which I suspect white Americans would be more apt to notice. That people here don't see is itself a testament to the city's racism.) And in this respect, the city is worse than many places in the US. Indeed, all things considered, Toronto is one of the great racist cities of North America.
I have written about some of my experiences elsewhere on this forum. I am not going to repeat myself here.
I have explained to you before that just because two groups have been the targets of racism does not mean that they have been to target to the same extent or the same way. The experience of Asians and blacks are different, with blacks having had it worse. You can confirm this by reading up on the subject. Though for someone who is so interested in this topic you seem to have little interest in actually learning anything.
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