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Well yes I agree with you about the younger generation - i'm just saying there's a whole lot more deep rooted issues with African American blacks sociologically than Black Canadians so that is why I have a bit more optimism up here. This doesn't mean there isn't major stumbling blocks to get from a to z for sure.. Carding is certainly one of them.
I understand your mood completely but lets not forget - Suanders is an over 30 year veteran of a force that has had major issues in the way it deals with the public in those decades.. He's very much an old school product of an outdated machine. Its not just against the black community either (though obviously that is the most egregious example) but what happened during the G20, with Sammy Yatim and many other examples - apprehensible as well.. The truth is, we have a lot of issues with our Police Department in this city and they are very firmly planted from the top down and Saunders doesn't look to be the leader that is going to change things, voluntarily anyway.
That history and legacy that the African American community has to deal with has both its negative and positive aspects. The negatives are obvious (Systemic racism, legacy of slavery, war on drugs and the crack epidemic) But you also have to examine the positives like the civil rights movement which sprouted a stronger voice politically and also an established black bourgeoisie. In Toronto you have avoided those issues which gives you an excellent starting point, but it also has resulted in a fragmented community politically that is unable to push reform that benefits the community.
Another thing is the foreign born black community in the US. The foreign born black community is one of the fasted growing demographics in the US, a portion of which are now the highest educated group in the US, passing Asians. If we could find a way to unite with the African American community and not turn our noses up at them (Which as a black foreigner myself I know happens) then we could really create some meaningful change. The problem is that there is no unity.
The 2nd part I agree with 100%. Saunders is the establishment and he is showing his true colours already. Not that I am surprised.
I'm a Black American and lived in Toronto for a few years. Toronto definitely has a problem with "Racial Profiling" by police. I was actually pulled over more in Toronto being a Black Man driving a nice car then I ever was back home in the city i'm from in the U.S. I would say Toronto's police definitely "Racially Profile" Black people and maybe other minorities, but definitely Black people.
One of those times I was pulled over, the police officer asked me if the car I was driving was my car, lol. So you pull me over for no reason, then ask me if the car i'm driving is mine? Are you freaking serious? Those cops were lucky I didn't file a complaint, I was in a rush and didn't have time for any of that foolishness. It was so crazy to me, that I couldn't believe the cop actually said that to me.
The objective of police is to fight crime isn't it? And if most crime is coming from the black community the wouldn't it make sense to target black people and specifically black males who commit the overwhelming majority of murder and violent crime in Toronto?
So you want police to fight crime in the city, but because most criminals happen to be black you don't want them to profile and do their job of fighting crime? Really? Yes its unfortunate that decent black people are mixed up in this and are potentially unfairly being stopped and questioned by police, but why don't you blame black criminals for ruining things for you instead of being angry at police who are only trying to do their job?
Seriously if blacks didn't commit so much crime, do you really believe cops would still pull you over for sh$ts and giggles or because they're just racist? Why don't black people do that for a while? Why don't they commit crime at a low rate for a few years and see if police won't treat them differently?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
Toronto and Canada's black community is different from the U.S... There's so much more history down there that really naws away at the social development of the community as a whole. I really do think once we start getting certain aspects of our collective act together in Canada when it comes to vis mins and in particular the black community - we could very well offer the best experience for members of those commuities in the world..
What exactly do Canadians have to 'get their act together' to make minorities feel welcomed more than they already are? Toronto is probably one of the best places for immigrants to come to and the same goes for Canada in general. To anyone who says Canada isn't welcoming and tolerant of immigrants, those people really need to visit other parts of the world to see the huge difference between those countries and Canada.
And also that's the thing about blacks. There is relatively little history in Canada of blacks being slaves and excessively oppressed up here, yet they STILL act the same as blacks in the US in being violent and criminal and this goes for both blacks who are born in Canada and new immigrants from black countries.
So anytime anyone points to American enslavement of blacks as to why black Americans behave the way they do, you only have to look at Canada's black population to completely disprove that argument.
You cant improve the relationship with the black community and keep this policy, that is impossible. So if a black police chief doesnt have the balls to change this, who will?
P.S: Fu*k this guy Saunders.
The question is what exactly changes if Toronto police ends carding? I'm fine with it ending, but what difference does it make?
For most non-blacks it makes no difference whether there's carding or not because they were living peacefully before carding and they will continue to live peacefully after carding ends. So what difference will ending carding be for blacks? Will they live more peacefully without carding than with? Doubtful. Will they commit less crime after carding has ended compared to before? Highly doubtful. Will blacks be much happier and less violent with carding being ended than with carding still active? Highly doubtful.
So tell me what net positive affect does ending carding do for the black community?
The question is what exactly changes if Toronto police ends carding? I'm fine with it ending, but what difference does it make?
For most non-blacks it makes no difference whether there's carding or not because they were living peacefully before carding and they will continue to live peacefully after carding ends. So what difference will ending carding be for blacks? Will they live more peacefully without carding than with? Doubtful. Will they commit less crime after carding has ended compared to before? Highly doubtful. Will blacks be much happier and less violent with carding being ended than with carding still active? Highly doubtful.
So tell me what net positive affect does ending carding do for the black community?
Once again, even though this has been repeated continuously. Carding targets blacks that are not engaged in criminal behavior. The majority of carding encounters lead to no criminal investigation and disproportionately target black males that have no criminal record.
So what exactly do I have to prove? If this targets law abiding citizens and results in no criminal charges, then what is its use? Why should someone like me have to answer for a small criminal element that exists in my community? Are you as a white man targeted for every sex offender or rapist that fits your description? Unless if you are implying that the majority of black residents in the GTA are criminals, which of course is not supported by any fact.
You cant improve the relationship with the black community and keep this policy, that is impossible. So if a black police chief doesnt have the balls to change this, who will?
P.S: Fu*k this guy Saunders.
It is very sad that this nomination does not appear likely to lead to an era of major improvements. (In your eyes at least, but I do trust your opinions a lot on such matters and suspect they are shared by most black Torontonians.)
Sometimes, the nomination of minority people to senior jobs can have a backfire effect. The minority individuals themselves usually have to rise through the establishment in order to attain the top position. They often aren't able to fully connect with the community they are a part of - or at least connect with them with respect to the relationship the community has with the institution they now lead.
Often things actually get worse under such leadership, but on the other hand the majority population feels like it's done its part by finally choosing a minority person for the top job. For them, it's then filed under the ''been there done that'' category, regardless of the outcome.
I mean, blacks are less than 10% of the population in Toronto. What are the chances of seeing another black police chief in the medium term in that city once Mr. Saunders retires?
It is very sad that this nomination does not appear likely to lead to an era of major improvements. (In your eyes at least, but I do trust your opinions a lot on such matters and suspect they are shared by most black Torontonians.)
Sometimes, the nomination of minority people to senior jobs can have a backfire effect. The minority individuals themselves usually have to rise through the establishment in order to attain the top position. They often aren't able to fully connect with the community they are a part of - or at least connect with them with respect to the relationship the community has with the institution they now lead.
Often things actually get worse under such leadership, but on the other hand the majority population feels like it's done its part by finally choosing a minority person for the top job. For them, it's then filed under the ''been there done that'' category, regardless of the outcome.
I mean, blacks are less than 10% of the population in Toronto. What are the chances of seeing another black police chief in the medium term in that city once Mr. Saunders retires?
Excellent points.
The problem within the minority community and "rising to the top" is that you at times need to not fully reveal who you are to get there. Touching on certain race related topics for example is something that makes people uncomfortable and in turn we tend to reserve those conversations to times we are amongst ourselves.
I have been at my company for 7 years and there are still co-workers that I cant fully cut loose around. When I am on the soccer field after work with my West Indian and Nigerian friends, we speak freely and cut loose, but back at the office we all tone it down quite a few notches. I suspect that when Mr. Saunders is sitting around at a BBQ with his Jamaican family, he may admit that "Dis deh carding ting is a bunch a ****ery my yout" but then in front of a panel amongst his peers he needs to toe the line.
Its a tough situation to be in and maybe I should symphatize with the man a bit more.
Not sure what relevance that has. It's being suggested that installing people from certain minority communities in positions of authority will improve things for said minority communities. I'm offering Baltimore as an example as how this is just not the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
Toronto and Canada's black community is different from the U.S... There's so much more history down there that really naws away at the social development of the community as a whole. I really do think once we start getting certain aspects of our collective act together in Canada when it comes to vis mins and in particular the black community - we could very well offer the best experience for members of those commuities in the world..
Not sure what relevance that has. It's being suggested that installing people from certain minority communities in positions of authority will improve things for said minority communities. I'm offering Baltimore as an example as how this is just not the case.
Why do you keep saying 'installing' - are you making the assumption that Saunders was 'installed' into his position? Of the 3 Deputy Police Chiefs in the TPS 2 were black....As for the sociological situation between blacks in the U.S and Canada - yes I think there are differences...
Again, I wasn't replying to something about the "sociological situation" of blacks. By the way you're *****-footing around this am I supposed to believe that unlike your friends in this thread you don't think there's a need for people from minority communities to be represented in positions of power?
Again, I wasn't replying to something about the "sociological situation" of blacks. By the way you're *****-footing around this am I supposed to believe that unlike your friends in this thread you don't think there's a need for people from minority communities to be represented in positions of power?
What would I call what exactly? I asked you the question and I think you're the one ***** footing around things.. So just say it - in your opinion do you think Saunders was gifted the Police Chief job because he's black.. Is that true or am I missing what you're trying to say.. Its a simple question really..
If you don't see the difference between the experience of black americans to that of black canadians and just think they can be lumped into the same bag of coal Ken that's not really my problem.. I do think there is a difference.. Our Black community just hasn't had the same historical baggage as those in the U.S..
Once again, even though this has been repeated continuously. Carding targets blacks that are not engaged in criminal behavior. The majority of carding encounters lead to no criminal investigation and disproportionately target black males that have no criminal record.
So what exactly do I have to prove? If this targets law abiding citizens and results in no criminal charges, then what is its use? Why should someone like me have to answer for a small criminal element that exists in my community? Are you as a white man targeted for every sex offender or rapist that fits your description? Unless if you are implying that the majority of black residents in the GTA are criminals, which of course is not supported by any fact.
100 percent bang on...
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