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Old 07-18-2012, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,808 posts, read 37,843,988 times
Reputation: 11578

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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Crystal clear actually, I get the gist of what you are saying. There is definitely value in looking to other cities for examples, that is why you have Mayor and Police Chief conferences where they can exchange data and advice in dealing with similar issues. No arguments from me on that front.

The danger that many run into though is allowing comparisons to cloud all reasonable thinking to a point that you can't see any room for improvement because another city is worse off.

Many Torontonians run into this problem, even at the political level. Look at Mayor Fords comments after this shooting? Toronto is safe, we have to move on, blah blah. How on earth is that helping the victims, their family and residents who have to live in that neighborhood? Who cares what is going on in Detroit tonight, your city just had 21 people wounded in ONE incident, that is more than enough reason to concentrate on your own problems not those of others.
This is one of the most annoying traits of Canadians. They brag about how their crime rates (especially murder) are so low but when compared to almost all other western countries except for the U.S., Canada is actually slightly on the high side. Western European capitals which are much larger than our biggest cities usually have lower rates of homicide and violence. And they are diverse too, don't be mistaken.

It's as if everything would still be fine if Toronto ever got to 150 murders, just as long as Detroit (or some other U.S. city) stayed around 300.
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:12 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
271 posts, read 531,318 times
Reputation: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Even if we accept the dubious and incredibly insensitive argument that the victims were just black people looking for trouble or hanging out with the wrong crowd, eventually as this stuff gets more and more out of control, it will on occasion spill over into the world of ''people like you'' (using this term cautiously).

Remember Jane Creba?

Remember the Eaton Centre a few months or weeks ago?
How's it a dubious argument? "My baby did nothing wrong" is a cultural phenomenon in black communities. It's how things are done. Look at Chicago... dead kids flashing gang signs are "turning their lives around", with their fingers blurred out on the news or in the paper. That's happening here. "Dead black guy is known to police, but friends and family say he was turning his life around". It's boring and it's a tool to deflect.

I remember them, and those are actual tragedies. I won't shed a tear if every violent criminal in this city, no matter the race, is cut down far, far, far away from actual law-abiding citizens. When it happens in the core, around families who don't send their toddlers to block parties on weeknights, around the people who actually pay taxes and couldn't attend block parties on weeknights due to work, I expect the police to act accordingly and treat these crimes more seriously.
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:17 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
271 posts, read 531,318 times
Reputation: 268
It's just more black guys with guns killing other black guys over stupid stuff. It'll go on until the end of time or until these communities acknowledge that they have self-inflicted issues beyond poverty, which I might add, they get an awful lot of help with in Canada.
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,808 posts, read 37,843,988 times
Reputation: 11578
The idea that a certain part of a city, especially if members of a certain racial group are concentrated there, should be written off and designated a no-go zone for so-called law-abiding citizens, is totally repulsive to me.
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:31 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
271 posts, read 531,318 times
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There's no reason for a so-called law-abiding citizen to putter around Galloway when they don't live there. There's nothing to see and nothing to do, except encounter trouble.

And it's not about race (yet somehow it always is, huh). It's about crime. Toronto doesn't have much in terms of concentrated, white, high-crime areas, but other cities do, and for all citizens, they don't go there unless they have to. This is how the world works... large swaths of land are made undesirable destinations because of the criminality of the citizens. Toronto's not immune to that-- there's no sightseeing bus that takes tourists up to Rexdale because there's no reason for them to be in Rexdale.
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Old 07-18-2012, 12:10 PM
 
6,082 posts, read 6,024,486 times
Reputation: 1916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
But one should also remember that Chicago and Detroit were not always the way they are. That's why it is important to nip this trend in the bud while it's still time.
Any ideas as to what's driving this trend?
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Old 07-18-2012, 12:13 PM
 
Location: The heart of Cascadia
1,328 posts, read 3,172,909 times
Reputation: 848
One thing I would suggest Canada not do is take the 'hard on crime' approach America does. And what I mean by quote on quote is that America's solution to crime is simply to beef up punishment rather than focus on the roots. Giving life (or death) sentences might appease the public, but it's a vastly inferior solution to fixing the problems at their core.
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Old 07-18-2012, 12:17 PM
 
Location: The heart of Cascadia
1,328 posts, read 3,172,909 times
Reputation: 848
And by the way, obviously this doesn't affect me personally, but as someone who visited Toronto a few months ago and loved it, it makes me very sad to think that this happened there twice recently. :/

Also I wonder if the hot weather has anything to do with the rash of violence? Hot weather tends to make people more irritable, especially people who are not used to it.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:24 PM
 
1,300 posts, read 1,039,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
This is one of the most annoying traits of Canadians. They brag about how their crime rates (especially murder) are so low but when compared to almost all other western countries except for the U.S., Canada is actually slightly on the high side. Western European capitals which are much larger than our biggest cities usually have lower rates of homicide and violence. And they are diverse too, don't be mistaken.

It's as if everything would still be fine if Toronto ever got to 150 murders, just as long as Detroit (or some other U.S. city) stayed around 300.
Actually that's not quite correct. According to Wiki, Canada is near the bottom when it comes to murder rates even when compared to European and some Asian countries. And the fact is is that the murder and crime rates would be EVEN LOWER if it wasn't for black crime.

For example in Toronto about 21 of the current 29 murder victims are black and you can bet they were almost all killed by other blacks. Just picture that for a moment. If you removed black murders, Toronto's murder number would be DOWN TO 8 OR SO. That's right in a city/GTA region of 5+ million, we'd be at 8 MURDERS thru half a year! Its the black community that's causing most of the trouble here and is moving the numbers up and let's not dance around that fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by callmemaybe View Post
One thing I would suggest Canada not do is take the 'hard on crime' approach America does. And what I mean by quote on quote is that America's solution to crime is simply to beef up punishment rather than focus on the roots. Giving life (or death) sentences might appease the public, but it's a vastly inferior solution to fixing the problems at their core.
I agree that tougher sentences isn't necessarily the best solution, but what else can you do? Alot of these black kids don't seem to WANT to change or be rehabilitated. Watching the news, if I had a dime for everytime I heard:

- he was turning his life around
- he's a good boy (after he's dead or committed murder)
- he was an aspiring rapper/basketball player/musician etc
- he was 'known to police'

When they're talking about a black male, I'd be stinking rich by now.

Some people no matter how hard you try simply don't want or can't be helped. Just look at all the young Somali men who came to Canada from their worn torn country and yet despite coming to a very peaceful Canada from the hellhole that is Somalia, they still die at a much higher rate than people of other ethnicities. Instead of taking advantage of what Canada has to offer for them, they go and do the same crap that they did back home. Best thing to do with these people is to either jail them or deport them back to their country of origin until they learn how to live civily.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:45 PM
 
Location: The heart of Cascadia
1,328 posts, read 3,172,909 times
Reputation: 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Sterling View Post


I agree that tougher sentences isn't necessarily the best solution, but what else can you do? Alot of these black kids don't seem to WANT to change or be rehabilitated. Watching the news, if I had a dime for everytime I heard:

- he was turning his life around
- he's a good boy (after he's dead or committed murder)
- he was an aspiring rapper/basketball player/musician etc
- he was 'known to police'

When they're talking about a black male, I'd be stinking rich by now.
I think it's something about the culture. Maybe they should do cultural analysis and figure out why crime is endemic in certain societies. I'd hate to see Canada become reactionary about crime and punishment like America is. American justice is just about revenge, it's not really about improving the situation. In fact the 'revolving door' system of justice here and the culture of violence people learn in prison probably just makes things worse.
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