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Toronto is what it is, nothing more, nothing less. Any attempt to categorize it, pin it down, label it will be an exercise in frustration.
To the casual visitor or tourist, it may very well seem like an American city. But even saying it resembles an American city doesn't make much sense, considering the tremendous diversity in American cities, including those that are so often compared to each other like New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia. Anyone who has spent any time in any of these cities knows that any similarities are pretty shallow. Get to know them a bit and you'll see that they are all very different places, with different architecture, different culture, different culinary delights, different histories, different streetscapes, and urban experiences, even from neighbourhood to neighbourhood. Hell, once you scratch the surface, it's hard to find any meaningful similarity between these oft-compared American cities, other than the fact that most of the people who live there speak English. They are the sum of their parts, and their parts are so many and so diverse that trying to compare them ends up being a very superficial exercise.
With that in mind, how can anyone say Toronto an American city when American cities themselves are so varied and unique, even in a fairly small geographical area? I think that if anyone is going to say Toronto is an American city they must first a) establish what an American city is - in other words, what is it that all large American cities share that makes them American, as opposed to British or German? Then one must figure out b) what does Toronto have in common with the American city as defined by the criteria established in a) that makes it more American than, say London, or Montreal, or Vancouver, or Berlin. One can do this if they want, or they can just admit that Toronto is what it is - a Canadian city, whatever that means. Period.
If people want to say Toronto is an American city, that's fine. But I'd like to know what exactly an American city is, and how Toronto fits with that more than other large Western cities like London. And how is it more American than Canadian? What does it mean to be either? These are all relevant questions that no one seems to eager to answer.
As a lover of cities and one who really tries to get to know the cities I visit from the point of view of a resident and not a tourist, I think that it's impossible to say Toronto is like any other city beyond superficial similarities. Once you really get to know the place, you quickly realize it is like almost all cities - completely unique and impossible to pin down, because it is constantly in flux. The moment you think you understand it, it changes and any notions you once had about change with it. In this sense, Toronto is like all cities and like no other city.
One final point, about people from Toronto being snobby towards other Canadian cities. Other than on this board where pissing contests and put-downs seem to be quite common, I've never heard someone from Toronto bash another Canadian city and say Toronto is better or the best. On the other hand, practically everyone who isn't from Toronto bashes this city and its residents. So who has the attitude problem? I've often said, hating on Toronto is the one thing that unites all Canadians - even more so than hockey or the great outdoors or winter. It is one thing that all Canadians (with the exception of most of Toronto's population) have in common. So it's kind of funny to hear people always saying Torontonians have a superiority complex. IMO, I've heard more people from Montreal putting down Toronto than any other residents from any other city. I wonder why that might be?
they wern't directly being snobby to other canadian cities, they just felt proud to be from toronto, like its an honour and that they'll be disappointed to be anywhere else. one thing that you missed out with americans in GENERAL is all of them get teary eyed about where they're from, whether that be USA itself, or just New York or chicago or whatever. you'd get that same attitude in toronto. its FAR from what i expected from canada. montreal was nothing like that. montreal fit the 'canadians being reserved and nice' bill perfectly. they didn't brag about being from montreal, they were just down-to-earth. i can imagine why montrealer's would put toronto down, because toronto are getting too snobby !! even montrealers get what i'm saying !! i'm not even from canada and it doesn't seem right for toronto to be as it is.
they wern't directly being snobby to other canadian cities, they just felt proud to be from toronto, like its an honour and that they'll be disappointed to be anywhere else. one thing that you missed out with americans in GENERAL is all of them get teary eyed about where they're from, whether that be USA itself, or just New York or chicago or whatever. you'd get that same attitude in toronto. its FAR from what i expected from canada. montreal was nothing like that. montreal fit the 'canadians being reserved and nice' bill perfectly. they didn't brag about being from montreal, they were just down-to-earth. i can imagine why montrealer's would put toronto down, because toronto are getting too snobby !! even montrealers get what i'm saying !! i'm not even from canada and it doesn't seem right for toronto to be as it is.
Montrealer's are plenty proud of being from Montreal. Same with Vancouverites. Same with Calgarians. Same with people from the Maritimes. Definitely same with people from Newfoundland.
Being proud of where you're from is not an American thing, people are proud of and attached to their communities and the cultures they were raised in all over the world.
Montrealer's are plenty proud of being from Montreal. Same with Vancouverites. Same with Calgarians. Same with people from the Maritimes. Definitely same with people from Newfoundland.
Being proud of where you're from is not an American thing, people are proud of and attached to their communities and the cultures they were raised in all over the world.
being attached to their own community and culture is fine. no one is ever NOT proud of being from somewhere but there is a line. i'll give you an example, i met a guy in london who sounded as if he was from north america so i asked him, "where are you from ?" and i'm not joking he literally put hand on heart. "murica.. god bless america" ...that is on the more extreme end of 'pride' i've come across, but the others arn't far. it actually gets worse in america because they get proud over their ancestral background too. a good example is the americans of irish heritage.. about 95% of these "irish" americans havn't even step foot into Ireland and have no idea whereabouts in Ireland they originate from.. they're just "irish". they're so proud of being Irish, they don't even know why.. toronto isn't at that american level, but its more on the american side in comparison to the canadian/montreal side.
being attached to their own community and culture is fine. no one is ever NOT proud of being from somewhere but there is a line. i'll give you an example, i met a guy in london who sounded as if he was from north america so i asked him, "where are you from ?" and i'm not joking he literally put hand on heart. "murica.. god bless america" ...that is on the more extreme end of 'pride' i've come across, but the others arn't far. it actually gets worse in america because they get proud over their ancestral background too. a good example is the americans of irish heritage.. about 95% of these "irish" americans havn't even step foot into Ireland and have no idea whereabouts in Ireland they originate from.. they're just "irish". they're so proud of being Irish, they don't even know why.. toronto isn't at that american level, but its more on the american side in comparison to the canadian/montreal side.
The reason may be that Toronto is a big fish in a small pond (Canada). Compared to the rest of the country, it is the by far the most powerful and influencial city. This will create a local sense of pride but perhaps you met some people that are just going too far with it. I can assure you that most people in Toronto do not think they are better than other people in other countries, if anything, they crave more attention from others. If Montreal was the first city in Canada (and it once was), then they would probably be less humble. So some of this is attributable to human nature.
The US is obviously the biggest fish in the biggest pond (the World) so this creates an inflated sense of worth. Let's face it, the past 100 years has belonged to the US as they lead the world in so many ways. People act like they are part of this greatness when in reality they were just born in the US by chance and haven't accomplished anything. The US itself has probably peaked as a nation looking forward and American arrogance is on the decline, especially during the great recession.
I've also found people in London and New York to have much more snobby attitudes. Many act like every other city is inferior just because its not London or NYC. In many ways these cities can carry their weight but a lot of this attitude just goes too far sometimes.
Last edited by johnathanc; 04-01-2013 at 06:17 PM..
Haha...there's nothing to get angry about. After living in Toronto and some major US cities, I can tell you that day-to-day life in Toronto is not that different from that of a US city. The differences stem more from Canada vs. US attitude differences, like:
-social systems (details of which not the topic here but we basically know) which create more of a 'middleclass' feel in Toronto as opposed to the 'poor' vs 'rich' feel of US cities;
-the promotion of multiculturalism in TO which results in a more 'immigrant' or 'mosiac' feel vs 'melting pot' or 'American culture first' feel;
-people are also more quieter/reserved compared to a louder, outgoing, 'in your face' personalities you'll find in US cities.
These are subtle differences but they seem more Canadian vs. Torontonian to me. Otherwise, the food, amenities, entertainment and overall lifstyle is very similar to a US city.
But is the city getting more Americanized? It probably is in some respects. The condo/real estate boom has increased the cost of living signifcantly so the core city will become more less lower/middle class/immigrant and more yuppy -- so I think the rich-poor divide is becoming more prevalent in Toronto over the last ten years. But I also think the growth has been largely typical North American which is to be expected. A lot of the new restaurant concepts and clothing stores come from the US and the build out of entertainment areas Queen West West and Ossington even remind me of things I've seen in East Village or Brooklyn. I don't know if this makes us any more or less American than before, however.
I also question the whole concept of being 'too' Americanized. We are founded by the same people around the same time on the same continent so of course our cultures will overlap a lot, this does not mean Toronto has 'no' culture at all. So for the Montrealers out there, 'yes', I agree that is not as 'distinct' a culture as MTL but you cannot say there is 'no' culture TO just because it is relatively closer to (but not exactly like) the US. It always has been this way and likely always will be. Like I said, the differences lie more in the personalities and attitudes of the inhabitants, not in our amenities or design as a city. Even though everything is strangly familar, you just know you are in Canada when you are in Toronto by the vibe of the people.
My location is the newly gentrified end of Queen Street east just the other side of the Don River. It's an odd mix of the original anglo poor - and middle class families with Asian nannies...with a slight dose of non- assuming hipsters who seem to all have the same personality. On the street you will see folks coming out of an eatery after a 100 dollar supper who skirt around begging welfare types at the end of the month. Then there are the arrogant gay crowd who actually think they are some sort of new ruling class...I find some of them offensive and irritating. Having made the mistake of identifying myself as conservative..they will quietly persecute...No- The great social experiment in Toronto is no all joy - bliss and equality...Classes are forming and there is a great divide. It is no the melting pot that was planned on...Yes we are polite but there is a underlying tension between groups.
The reason may be that Toronto is a big fish in a small pond (Canada). Compared to the rest of the country, it is the by far the most powerful and influencial city. This will create a local sense of pride but perhaps you met some people that are just going too far with it. I can assure you that most people in Toronto do not think they are better than other people in other countries, if anything, they crave more attention from others. If Montreal was the first city in Canada (and it once was), then they would probably be less humble. So some of this is attributable to human nature.
The US is obviously the biggest fish in the biggest pond (the World) so this creates an inflated sense of worth. Let's face it, the past 100 years has belonged to the US as they lead the world in so many ways. People act like they are part of this greatness when in reality they were just born in the US by chance and haven't accomplished anything. The US itself has probably peaked as a nation looking forward and American arrogance is on the decline, especially during the great recession.
I've also found people in London and New York to have much more snobby attitudes. Many act like every other city is inferior just because its not London or NYC. In many ways these cities can carry their weight but a lot of this attitude just goes too far sometimes.
apparently there was a time when even toronto was humble like the rest of canada, despite being one of the most powerful cities in canada. i don't really know because i went there recently. new york does have a high level of snobbiness, but i've seen as high levels as many other places in the USA.. i've seen it in california (most specifically LA), florida (miami), illinois (chicago) and ofcourse, Houston in texas.. those are the places i have been and they're all at HIGH levels. in UK, its a different story. London is very snobby, but the second you leave london borders, everyone is down-to-earth.. even in birmingham, which is the equivilent of los angeles (2nd biggest city in UK).
montreal canadian were way more reserved in comparison to torontonians who are actually quite stuck up. its like they're proud about being from toronto and that people from other places don't compare or are lesser than them... like its some kind of honour.. its very similar to USA in general, where people get teary-eyed with pride when there's a USA flag .. i mean cmon, seriously ? .. getting teary-eyed over something that is created by lines on a map is an american thing. i reckon its because of how toronto is percieved in the media nowadays.. the home of Drake, home of Russell Peters,.. so they feel to associate with them or something. i don't know anything about social psychology so i'm taking a random guess. makes some sense to me.
Not sure I would say Montrealers are more reserved than Torontonians. If anything Montrealers are more gregarious, talkative and exuberant than people in Toronto. Perhaps what you mean is cocky (or smug) about their city - which yes Torontonians have become a lot moreso of late.
Perhaps this has something to do with Toronto's civic identity being hard to pin down and somewhat ill-defined. So instead of identifying with the stuff that people in other cities generally identify with their cities, Torontonians have come to define their civic in terms of big-ness, most-ness and best-ness.
I think this might be the vibe you are getting from them.
compared to montreal, which seems to have distinct feel about. montreal feels more 'canadian' whereas toronto just feels like an american city.. anyone else notice this ? or maybe its just me.
What does a canadian city feel like?
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.. i mean cmon, seriously ? .. getting teary-eyed over something that is created by lines on a map is an american thing. i reckon its because of how toronto is percieved in the media nowadays.. the home of Drake, home of Russell Peters,.. so they feel to associate with them or something. i don't know anything about social psychology so i'm taking a random guess. makes some sense to me.
