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Old 03-30-2013, 09:37 PM
 
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Such a shame that one small group of people can cause so much damage and murder in an otherwise extremely peaceful city.

I mean seriously if you removed young black males from Toronto, there'd probably be less than 10 murders a year and virtually zero gun related homicides and gun crime in general. Year after year its the same damn thing, but it will never change because we can't just say publicly what everyone already knows and simply deal with the problem head on.

One killed in Toronto shopping mall shooting | CTV Toronto News

Last edited by Max Sterling; 03-30-2013 at 09:59 PM..
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Toronto
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^^^what do you propose?
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Old 03-31-2013, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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Exactly TOKIDD! what do you propose Max? The vast majority of young black males are not a problem so do you suggest we deport everyone for being black, even those born in Canada and who don't possess a criminal record? How about you open up your mind and actually give black people a chance ie... hire them and not stereotype them for the colour of their skin, but judge them for their character and in the case of a job their skills!

Any homicide is one too many anywhere but for a city of our size we still have remarkably low homicide rate.

I hate to say it though, but since this is the second murder at a large mall in less than a year - i'm thinking security screening at mall entrances (atleast prominent malls such as Eaton Centre, Yorkdale etc). In Istanbul they screen everyone who goes into the mall and I think its a good idea.
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Old 03-31-2013, 07:52 PM
 
Location: New York
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Originally Posted by TOkidd View Post
^^^what do you propose?
Usually, 1st goes acknowledgement of a problem. Society-wide.

Then it's possible to begin debates how to fix it.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
564 posts, read 1,036,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I hate to say it though, but since this is the second murder at a large mall in less than a year - i'm thinking security screening at mall entrances (atleast prominent malls such as Eaton Centre, Yorkdale etc). In Istanbul they screen everyone who goes into the mall and I think its a good idea.
Slippery slope. How much freedom are you willing to trade for a false sense of "security"? Shootings can happen anywhere. You have much more chance of getting killed or injured driving to the mall. The last thing I want is some underpaid and under-trained security person patting me down or giving me the stinkeye when I just want to grab a coffee and stroll the mall. If we are all going to live in fear we might as well just stay home.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
564 posts, read 1,036,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Sterling View Post
Such a shame that one small group of people can cause so much damage and murder in an otherwise extremely peaceful city.

I mean seriously if you removed young black males from Toronto, there'd probably be less than 10 murders a year and virtually zero gun related homicides and gun crime in general. Year after year its the same damn thing, but it will never change because we can't just say publicly what everyone already knows and simply deal with the problem head on.
The victim in this case was of Asian descent. Should we still round up all young black males? What about the young white guys that were shooting up Halifax the past few years? One of them even shot a guy in a hospital parking lot (IWK shooting accomplice sentenced - Nova Scotia - CBC News). How much safer Halifax would be if we rounded up all young white males!

You can't cure dumb by rounding up an entire demographic. Every group has it's problems. As a white man, I hardly want to be included in the same stereotypical demographic as the Honey Boo Boo clan, or the idiots taking shots at fellow criminal clowns in NS.

Taking issue with criminals and fools is fine, but do not fall victim to demonizing an entire demographic of people in which the vast majority are pursuing the same values as yourself.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Toronto
2,802 posts, read 3,840,674 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Sterling View Post
Such a shame that one small group of people can cause so much damage and murder in an otherwise extremely peaceful city.

I mean seriously if you removed young black males from Toronto, there'd probably be less than 10 murders a year and virtually zero gun related homicides and gun crime in general. Year after year its the same damn thing, but it will never change because we can't just say publicly what everyone already knows and simply deal with the problem head on.

One killed in Toronto shopping mall shooting | CTV Toronto News
It's interesting how you assumed the perpetrators were black.
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Old 04-01-2013, 05:16 PM
 
1,300 posts, read 1,037,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Exactly TOKIDD! what do you propose Max? The vast majority of young black males are not a problem so do you suggest we deport everyone for being black, even those born in Canada and who don't possess a criminal record? How about you open up your mind and actually give black people a chance ie... hire them and not stereotype them for the colour of their skin, but judge them for their character and in the case of a job their skills!

Any homicide is one too many anywhere but for a city of our size we still have remarkably low homicide rate.
What I propose is to get tough on criminals and to get the community to really help the police in bringing criminals to justice. No more of this witnesses not coming forward or not saying anything even if they're questioned. And remember how police cracked down on criminals in the Malvern area a few years back? I would step that up for everywhere in Toronto until criminals got the message that its better to lay low than to continue to commit crime and murder and get busted.

Also for any immigrants that commit crime here in Toronto, they should be given a three strike rule and then on the third time that they are charged and convicted of an offense they are IMMEDIATELY DEPORTED back to their country of origin no questions asked and banned for life from ever entering Canada ever again. If it involves murder then they should be deported after their sentence has ended.

If you warn immigrants time and again that their behavior isn't tolerated and they still choose to commit crime, then its time to ship them home and to ban the forever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthYorkEd View Post
The victim in this case was of Asian descent. Should we still round up all young black males? What about the young white guys that were shooting up Halifax the past few years? One of them even shot a guy in a hospital parking lot (IWK shooting accomplice sentenced - Nova Scotia - CBC News). How much safer Halifax would be if we rounded up all young white males!

You can't cure dumb by rounding up an entire demographic. Every group has it's problems. As a white man, I hardly want to be included in the same stereotypical demographic as the Honey Boo Boo clan, or the idiots taking shots at fellow criminal clowns in NS.

Taking issue with criminals and fools is fine, but do not fall victim to demonizing an entire demographic of people in which the vast majority are pursuing the same values as yourself.
You're right every group has individuals that cause trouble, BUT blacks have the highest number of people in their group that cause the most problems and crime in Toronto by a HUGE margin.

Just look at this homicide map for 2013 thus far. Its not completely up to date but close enough:

GTA Homicides in 2013 | CBC Toronto

Now please count up how many victims of murder are black versus how many victims of murder are non-black? And please keep in mind that the population of Toronto, the GTA and the outer cities like Vaughn, Brampton etc is approximately 5+ million people. And also remember that blacks make up about 7% of this population or about 352,000.

So if you count up all the victims of murder that are black, you'll find that about half are black and the rest non-black and we know that almost all those black murder victims were likely murdered by fellow blacks. So you're telling me you don't see anything wrong when 7% of population account for 50% or more murder victims while the OTHER 93% OF 5+ MILLION people account for the other half? That's right 352,000 blacks commit more murder and are victims of murder than the other 4.7+ million non-blacks COMBINED. This has been going on for DECADES now and you don't think that we shouldn't be cracking down on this specific group of people?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TOkidd View Post
It's interesting how you assumed the perpetrators were black.
When I hear of incidents like these happening I ALWAYS assume blacks are involved not because I'm racist but because 95-98% of the time its been proven to be TRUE. IE when you hear of a shooting in a public space, the victim is usually black and the suspect is almost always black with few exceptions. So if it happens time and again and its the same people most of the time, then it would be illogical to not assume it wasn't blacks involved unless proven otherwise wouldn't it?
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Old 04-02-2013, 07:03 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
564 posts, read 1,036,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Sterling View Post
What I propose is to get tough on criminals and to get the community to really help the police in bringing criminals to justice. No more of this witnesses not coming forward or not saying anything even if they're questioned.
This is extremely frustrating to law enforcement, but some communities have learned not to trust the police. Often with good reason. And after you have agreed to talk or be a witness, who can guarantee there won't be reprisals? Easy to say when you are miles away, safely tucked in a nice neighborhood. But when you have to walk the streets and deal with people who are in on the "code", it can be very intimidating. Cops can't (or won't) always be able to protect you and your loved ones.

Quote:
Also for any immigrants that commit crime here in Toronto, they should be given a three strike rule and then on the third time that they are charged and convicted of an offense they are IMMEDIATELY DEPORTED back to their country of origin no questions asked and banned for life from ever entering Canada ever again. If it involves murder then they should be deported after their sentence has ended.
Agreed. We don't need more garbage. I would rather see my tax dollars fund a one-way plane ticket than years of a prison sentence.

Quote:
You're right every group has individuals that cause trouble, BUT blacks have the highest number of people in their group that cause the most problems and crime in Toronto by a HUGE margin.
I don't dispute your stats or that there is a very obvious problem in certain communities. But I think it goes beyond race. I don't think people commit crime because of their skin color. I think it is an indication of massive systemic failure on many fronts, from family, to community, to society as a whole. This is not to condone or excuse criminal behavior, but just to recognize that the root causes are much more complex than just the pigment of skin.

It boils down to this: teach someone they are worthless, and they will neither value you nor themselves. Yes, that is a gross oversimplification. But I would argue the social machinery (including their own family and community) often works against certain people, whether poor, black, etc. (One of the best TV shows I've ever watched is The Wire. It illustrates how at each level of society, from hoodrats and junkies to cops and politicians, we are ultimately compromised and betrayed by the very institutions that are supposedly in place to serve us. Season 4 was especially poignant for seeing how young kids are so easily stripped of any potential and chewed up.) From gangstas to school shooters, the common denominator seems to be an isolation from the greater society, a feeling of not belonging or having value.

Quote:
This has been going on for DECADES now and you don't think that we shouldn't be cracking down on this specific group of people?
I think we should be cracking down on criminals. That is, individuals who have demonstrated criminal or destructive behavior. Wearing baggy pants and acting "street" aren't against the law. Perhaps silly and strange to those of us outside the scene, but until they cross the line into criminality they should not be "cracked down" upon. That does not serve any positive purpose and is why they don't trust police and authority figures in the first place.

I do understand your frustration and perspective and I do recognize that the stats are leaning in a certain direction. I just think we differ in terms of why that situation exists and where potential solutions might be found.
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Old 04-02-2013, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Toronto
1,790 posts, read 2,042,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Sterling View Post

I mean seriously if you removed young black males from Toronto, there'd probably be less than 10 murders a year and virtually zero gun related homicides and gun crime in general.
Before we start deporting young black males, I would like to see figures on the percentage of young black males that are convicted of violent gun crimes.

Or should we just set up camps where we can keep track of them in a concentrated area?
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