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True. I have a Muslim colleague who behaves exactly in the same way. A pretty cool guy who parties and drinks and make funny jokes. And he eats PORK. Yep he was born Muslim but almost has nothing to do with it. I have never seem him pray to the empty sky either.
He is no doubt a lapsed or non-practising muslim in this case.
And I find it difficult to take them at their word when I am told that these women in burqas are doing it voluntarily (cultural/ religious reasons).
I have heard such arguments as well.
They do it voluntarily only because they are aware of the rather severe consequences from not doing it. This is so different from people who wear all sorts of weird clothes and do eccentric things to show their uniqueness.
They do it voluntarily only because they are aware of the rather severe consequences from not doing it. This is so different from people who wear all sorts of weird clothes and do eccentric things to show their uniqueness.
In the end, it is not voluntary. It is fear.
What makes it difficult to manage is that it is not always fear.
We have friends of ours who you might call relaxed muslims. No alcohol, no pork and they observe ramadan. But the women all dress western style, and teenagers are allowed to go out with their friends and you couldn't tell them apart from other teens in our city.
Anyway, this summer one of the daughters went to the old country and came back saying she wanted to wear a hijab and long flowing skirts only. She said it was her choice. Her parents all distraught and they say an uncle brainwashed her. Their words, not mine.
Obviously in this case it is not really fear because the uncle has never even been to Canada and other females in the family dress the way they want without danger.
Quite the contrast when you consider that the other females in the family have been swimming in my pool wearing tiny bikinis.
Frankly, I think you do not know much behind the India/Pakistan/Bangladesh conflict. I am not going to try and give you a history lesson. But I would not dismiss the role of religion in terror and conflict as easily as you do ......
We all know about this one: The largest attack on Canadian citizens ever - In 1985, Flight 182, an Air India flight operating on the Montreal–London–Delhi route was blown up by a bomb. A total of 329 people were killed, including 268 Canadians, 27 British citizens and 24 Indians.
Was this one driven by religion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnathanc
But what is the real root cause of the conflict today? What does each side have to gain by conflicting? Think about the answer to that question. It's not religion even though that may have been used as means to divide two nations of people in the past by a third party (Britain) mind you. The conflict now is more about land & influence which translates into economic and geopolitical (and ego) gains for the victor. We can each believe what we want to here I suppose. But I don't understand why two nations would continue to be in conflict solely because the majorities practice different religions. Is Turkey or Oman in conflict with India too for instance?
What makes it difficult to manage is that it is not always fear.
We have friends of ours who you might call relaxed muslims. No alcohol, no pork and they observe ramadan. But the women all dress western style, and teenagers are allowed to go out with their friends and you couldn't tell them apart from other teens in our city.
Anyway, this summer one of the daughters went to the old country and came back saying she wanted to wear a hijab and long flowing skirts only. She said it was her choice. Her parents all distraught and they say an uncle brainwashed her. Their words, not mine.
Obviously in this case it is not really fear because the uncle has never even been to Canada and other females in the family dress the way they want without danger.
Quite the contrast when you consider that the other females in the family have been swimming in my pool wearing tiny bikinis.
This is exactly my point. We are assuming the woman is forced to wear a burqa and is being oppressed in some inhumane manner. Some women raised in the "old country" or "new country" may actually want to wear it willingly because this is all they know and it is part of the culture they are raised in, as odd as it is from our western viewpoint. How do we know that she doesn't call the shots in the home and tells her husband what to do. How do really we know? How can one differentiate whether it is a voluntary or involuntary case or there is formal oppression involved? We are making assumptions that may not be true and hence compromising our rights and freedoms as citizens to dress how we want is a very legit legal argument. How do you even define what a burqa is? If I, as a male, decided to wrap a cloth around my body and face and poke two holes out for eyes and walk around, then should I be disallowed for doing so? Say there was no religious motive behind it, it's just how I choose to dress? Sure, I would never get hired for a job nor do I believe this is appropriate dress for the workplace or go to school but what if this is just my style?
Last edited by johnathanc; 08-23-2013 at 09:21 AM..
What makes it difficult to manage is that it is not always fear.
We have friends of ours who you might call relaxed muslims. No alcohol, no pork and they observe ramadan. But the women all dress western style, and teenagers are allowed to go out with their friends and you couldn't tell them apart from other teens in our city.
Anyway, this summer one of the daughters went to the old country and came back saying she wanted to wear a hijab and long flowing skirts only. She said it was her choice. Her parents all distraught and they say an uncle brainwashed her. Their words, not mine.
Obviously in this case it is not really fear because the uncle has never even been to Canada and other females in the family dress the way they want without danger.
Quite the contrast when you consider that the other females in the family have been swimming in my pool wearing tiny bikinis.
Good point Acajack. Calls for a good debate. You are right, it is not always fear. But it is still oppression.
What is voluntary in a context where men (her uncle, in her old country) have certain expectations? And you're guaranteed to be treated in a certain way if you don't veil yourself in a country like her old country.
We have to be very honest about the constraints that these women are placed under.
If I have a family where we get together every Sunday and cartwheel .... everyone who wants to feel welcome and be a part of the family with feel obliged to learn how to cartwheel.
Toronto Police did a survey once where they said that the majority of women who are abused by their husband end up retracting their statements. Is it all fear? No. But does it make it okay to get beaten up by your husband? Also, No!
Frankly, I think you do not know much behind the India/Pakistan/Bangladesh conflict. I am not going to try and give you a history lesson. But I would not dismiss the role of religion in terror and conflict as easily as you do ......
I'm open to learn as much as I can as I've had some pretty deep conversations about this conflict with really intelligent people from India and Pakistan, including some higher ups in the army. I'm more open-minded than you think about different points of view (which I always seek, whether mainstream or not) but of course I have to wrap my head around it to believe/understand it fully. I just don't believe the root of conflicts end in religion by itself, I think there is more to it when you peel below the surface, which most don't do. I also don't like fighting on CD, it's not worth it but I always enjoy civil argument and discussion. Please pass along or direct me to any materials you have and I'd be happy to read them when I have time.
Last edited by johnathanc; 08-23-2013 at 09:18 AM..
I don't think you can just assume that 100% of women in hijab are being oppressed or forced to do it. However I don't doubt that very often there is great pressure to do so either.
I don't see the huge problem with it everyone else does though. All you can really do is educate people about what hijab represents to people in the modern west and encourage women to make their own personal, well-informed decision about it. I don't perceive it as a threat here and I think it's dumb to ban it in public institutions. Just don't be pushy.
I live in Canada, only a few hours outside of Toronto, and travel around to the big cities here pretty often. There's also a fair number of Muslims at my university. It has seriously never affected me or anyone else that I know of in my 21 years of existence. I'm not religious and all this Muslim/Christian/Jewish/etc. stuff is absurd and ridiculous to me, but if that's your thing and you're not forcing people in to it or hurting others, I really don't care and neither should you.
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