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Disagree. Just like a myriad of other types of interpersonal conflict in this country, racism is of the subtle, underhanded variety (social exclusion, not offering help when clearly needed, etc.).
But then, who am I to comment when I am not a visible minority myself? That's why I actually try to see their point when they talk about their experiences rather than downplay it and say it's all them.
I am not a minority either but I have friends of other backgrounds. Few of my Asian and Indian friends said they heard racist things growing up and were even called names to their face.
I suspect you're an Indian and not white as you claim. Your comment has an Indianism in it
-another Indian
Nope I am White but a bit on the left side of the spectrum.
Don't blame anyone for thinking I am a minority though since I am not going on every thread telling people to stick to their own kind or go to a country that will cater to their ethnicity more. Some of the stuff I have read on this thread (especially the africa comment) is not the type of thing you would say to someone in real life.
Nope I am White but a bit on the left side of the spectrum.
Don't blame anyone for thinking I am a minority though since I am not going on every thread telling people to stick to their own kind or go to a country that will cater to their ethnicity more. Some of the stuff I have read on this thread (especially the africa comment) is not the type of thing you would say to someone in real life.
I couldn't believe what I was reading when I saw that. I reported it this afternoon.
As an aside, maybe someone can start a thread about the positive aspects of Toronto. I am personally not fond of the city but the constant negativity is starting to grate on my nerves.
Though I can see why OP is feeling some of the pain of racism, I would say he can count his blessings that he isn't Asian or Indian. Being a male from either of those races in Toronto is a death sentence, people are openly racist towards you it seems.
I'm sorry but you don't know what you're talking about. Neither Asians nor Indians are as lowly regarded as blacks are. In the case of Asians, it isn't even close.
That said, maybe whites exhibit less tact in making racist comments about those two groups. I don't know for sure, but it's possible.
Blacks do not cause the most crime here. You are assuming that crime = gun crimes, and that is not true. There are, I am sure, certain categories of crimes for which black people are underrepresented (certain so-called white-collar crimes probably are an example).
I can agree that blacks don't commit the most white collar crime, but when it comes to violent crime, robbery and murder, they MOST DEFINITELY commit the most amount of crime in those categories. This is FACT. Most times that you hear about a violent assault or murder on the streets, most of them involve blacks both as the perpetrator and as the victim.
Just look at the stats and news stories for the past few years in Toronto and see how often you see an asian or white or any other non-black person being arrested for assault or murder vs blacks and the difference in numbers is MASSIVE. As I said blacks make up about 7% of Toronto's population yet year after year they can account for 40-60% of murder victims and probably 70-80% if not more of non-fatal violent assaults where the victims that were stabbed, shot etc survived.
Heck just start watching the nightly news right now since we're at the beginning of a new year and see how often blacks appear in the news for violent crime vs. non-blacks. Track the numbers for a couple of months and then come back here and post the results and I guarantee you that blacks will be on top of the list.
Quote:
Now you write as if black over-representation in gun crimes develops in a vacuum -- as if socioeconomic forces have no effect. And that is obviously an oversimplified picture of crime rates and their causes: socioeconomic factors play a large (though probably not the only) role in crime rate disparities. And race plays a large role in black men's socioeconomic profile; if black men are discriminated against at much higher rates in the labor market, for example, that would have a depressing effect on their socioeconomic profile. That's just one example. There are numerous ways in which race can impact the socioeconomic profile of black men; low expectation on the part of teachers is another.
There are also probably other ways, independent of any impact on socioeconomic status, in which discrimination impacts group crime rates.
Again the same old excuses as to why blacks are violent instead of admitting what the actual problem is. Namely horrible black parenting, ghetto culture and the fact that as black kids grow up, they hang out with the wrong people and in turn become those same people. In otherwords blacks are their own worst enemy and are mostly to blame for the majority of their problems.
You live in Toronto so you should know that there aren't really any exclusively black neighborhoods in the city or GTA. IE there are areas in the city that have higher concentrations of blacks living in those neighborhoods, but there are also many non-blacks living in those same neighborhoods, in the exact same housing and under the exact same conditions and have their kids going to the exact same parks and public schools as black kids do.
The thing is why is it that non-black kids living and growing up in the exact same enviroment as black kids do in those neighborhoods, how come the majority of non-black kids can grow up to be productive, non-violent and non-criminal people? Why is it that white kids or non-black immigrant kids that live in those same places can grow up to be decent people while many black kids cannot?
This proves that blacks and their failure at raising their kids properly is the main reason why they have so many problems. When non-black families that have been placed in the exact same enviroment as black families yet one group mostly succeeds while the other group fails at a very high rate, then its pretty damn clear where the blame should be laid. To try and blame it on anything else is just nothing more than the same tired excuses that we've heard time and again.
Though I can see why OP is feeling some of the pain of racism, I would say he can count his blessings that he isn't Asian or Indian. Being a male from either of those races in Toronto is a death sentence, people are openly racist towards you it seems.
Is it so shocking to people that white people are also turned down simply because of their race and culture?? Well it shouldn't be and it happens as well....
I can agree that blacks don't commit the most white collar crime, but when it comes to violent crime, robbery and murder, they MOST DEFINITELY commit the most amount of crime in those categories. This is FACT. Most times that you hear about a violent assault or murder on the streets, most of them involve blacks both as the perpetrator and as the victim.
Just look at the stats and news stories for the past few years in Toronto and see how often you see an asian or white or any other non-black person being arrested for assault or murder vs blacks and the difference in numbers is MASSIVE. As I said blacks make up about 7% of Toronto's population yet year after year they can account for 40-60% of murder victims and probably 70-80% if not more of non-fatal violent assaults where the victims that were stabbed, shot etc survived.
Heck just start watching the nightly news right now since we're at the beginning of a new year and see how often blacks appear in the news for violent crime vs. non-blacks. Track the numbers for a couple of months and then come back here and post the results and I guarantee you that blacks will be on top of the list.
Again the same old excuses as to why blacks are violent instead of admitting what the actual problem is. Namely horrible black parenting, ghetto culture and the fact that as black kids grow up, they hang out with the wrong people and in turn become those same people. In otherwords blacks are their own worst enemy and are mostly to blame for the majority of their problems.
You live in Toronto so you should know that there aren't really any exclusively black neighborhoods in the city or GTA. IE there are areas in the city that have higher concentrations of blacks living in those neighborhoods, but there are also many non-blacks living in those same neighborhoods, in the exact same housing and under the exact same conditions and have their kids going to the exact same parks and public schools as black kids do.
The thing is why is it that non-black kids living and growing up in the exact same enviroment as black kids do in those neighborhoods, how come the majority of non-black kids can grow up to be productive, non-violent and non-criminal people? Why is it that white kids or non-black immigrant kids that live in those same places can grow up to be decent people while many black kids cannot?
This proves that blacks and their failure at raising their kids properly is the main reason why they have so many problems. When non-black families that have been placed in the exact same enviroment as black families yet one group mostly succeeds while the other group fails at a very high rate, then its pretty damn clear where the blame should be laid. To try and blame it on anything else is just nothing more than the same tired excuses that we've heard time and again.
Ghetto culture, independently of poverty, probably plays a role in the disparities we are talking about. That's why I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaving on a Jet Plane
socioeconomic factors play a large (though probably not the only) role in crime rate disparities.
But you can't understand the existence of Ghetto culture without reference to race.
Canadian Ghetto culture is undeniably influenced by American Ghetto culture.
American Ghetto culture is undeniably the outcome of racial oppression over the course of many generations.
So Canadian Ghetto culture is undeniably affected by racial oppression. We are, in part, paying for the racial sins of our neighbors to the South.
But only partly. Another part is the contribution of Canadian racism. Other factors might play a role as well, but I would argue that the two major forces are American and Canadian racism, both past and present.
I think that in some circumstance the role of parents might not as great as you might think. If the youth culture is powerful enough, the influence of parents can be negligible.
If it is true that non-blacks who grow up in these disadvantaged communities succeed at a much higher rate than blacks, that wouldn't prove what you said. Race could still be a factor -- and a significant one too. For example, the teachers could have lower expectations of black students than other students, and blacks might face more discrimination in the labor market than non-blacks. I believe both of these things are true.
That doesn't mean that race is the only factor. It means that it is false that race is a non-factor.
I don't know why you are so insistent about crime rate disparities for serious violent crimes. I never denied that. I simply pointed out that what you said was very likely false.
But you can't understand the existence of Ghetto culture without reference to race.
Canadian Ghetto culture is undeniably influenced by American Ghetto culture.
American Ghetto culture is undeniably the outcome of racial oppression over the course of many generations.
So Canadian Ghetto culture is undeniably affected by racial oppression. We are, in part, paying for the racial sins of our neighbors to the South.
This is why so many blacks never break the cycle of poverty and violence because of crap like this. Playing the eternal victim and STILL to this day blaming the past for the problems they have in the present and will continue to have in the future. Is this how low we have to go to try and explain why black Canadians are more violent that anyone else? Because they feel slavery and oppression by proxy now?? IE even though blacks in Canada have rarely been enslaved or truly oppressed here, because they learn it from black American culture, they too now 'feel' racially oppressed?? Really?!?!
Personally I don't give a damn what happened to blacks hundreds of years ago because I wasn't alive back then to make them my slaves and blacks living in the here and now should stop using the past as a crutch considering no black person living today was ever a slave. The point is blacks have more opportunities to succeed today more than previous generations ever did and they STILL do worse than everyone else.
At what point will blacks step up and take the blame for most of their failures?
Quote:
But only partly. Another part is the contribution of Canadian racism. Other factors might play a role as well, but I would argue that the two major forces are American and Canadian racism, both past and present.
I think that in some circumstance the role of parents might not as great as you might think. If the youth culture is powerful enough, the influence of parents can be negligible.
The role of parents IS PARAMOUNT to a child's developement and I don't know how you can possibly say it isn't. Just take a look at the difference between blacks and asians. They are like the exact polar opposites in the spectrum of how to raise your children properly and improperly.
Just take Toronto for example. Look at the asian community here. Most asian parents choose to make the effort to raise their kids properly and will scarifice everything they can to make sure they grow up right and get educated. Through all that effort, the majority of asian kids will indeed grow up not becoming criminals and instead will become decently if not very well edcuated people with morals. In turn these children will eventually have their own children and will have their kids educated and grow up to be decent people etc etc.
Now look at the black community here. Many black parents either are incapable and/or don't give a damn enough to raise their kids properly. They don't care or try hard enough to make sure their kids are taught morals or are doing well in school. Thus many of them will grow up to be thugs and criminals. When you have enough black kids like this in your neighborhoods, then parents become less able to raise their kids properly even if some black parents are trying their best. Eventually these black kids grow up not very educated, more violent and more criminal and over a number of generations the result is what you see today. Most blacks doing much worse than most asians.
The point is asians are better parents and raise better children and in turn all these children growing up together in neighborhoods are POSITIVELY affecting each other thus making for peaceful, better communities and people. Contrast that to black kids who are raised poorly and when they get together in neighborhoods it because a NEGATIVE MULTIPLIER. IE when you get many bad kids together in neighborhoods it brings down those communities and makes those areas more dangerous and violent.
This is why good parenting is so important and its why blacks have so many issues simply because they SUCK at parenting.
Quote:
If it is true that non-blacks who grow up in these disadvantaged communities succeed at a much higher rate than blacks, that wouldn't prove what you said. Race could still be a factor -- and a significant one too. For example, the teachers could have lower expectations of black students than other students, and blacks might face more discrimination in the labor market than non-blacks. I believe both of these things are true.
That doesn't mean that race is the only factor. It means that it is false that race is a non-factor.
I don't know why you are so insistent about crime rate disparities for serious violent crimes. I never denied that. I simply pointed out that what you said was very likely false.
Why wouldn't teachers have lower expectations for black students when they in general do much worse in school than anyone else year after year?
And what you call discrimination in the labor market while there might be some, could the other explaination not be that blacks are being hired less often simply because they're often less educated?
Also what exactly am I saying that's false?
Lastly while blacks might have a worse reputation overall, at least in Toronto they have it pretty good in the dating department. Besides whites, I'd say blacks are the next group who's most likely to be dating outside of their own race and have the most people to choose from in the dating pool. Asians and Indians among others are much less successful in that area, so being black does have its advantages.
This is why so many blacks never break the cycle of poverty and violence because of crap like this. Playing the eternal victim and STILL to this day blaming the past for the problems they have in the present and will continue to have in the future. Is this how low we have to go to try and explain why black Canadians are more violent that anyone else? Because they feel slavery and oppression by proxy now?? IE even though blacks in Canada have rarely been enslaved or truly oppressed here, because they learn it from black American culture, they too now 'feel' racially oppressed?? Really?!?!
Personally I don't give a damn what happened to blacks hundreds of years ago because I wasn't alive back then to make them my slaves and blacks living in the here and now should stop using the past as a crutch considering no black person living today was ever a slave. The point is blacks have more opportunities to succeed today more than previous generations ever did and they STILL do worse than everyone else.
At what point will blacks step up and take the blame for most of their failures?
The role of parents IS PARAMOUNT to a child's developement and I don't know how you can possibly say it isn't. Just take a look at the difference between blacks and asians. They are like the exact polar opposites in the spectrum of how to raise your children properly and improperly.
Just take Toronto for example. Look at the asian community here. Most asian parents choose to make the effort to raise their kids properly and will scarifice everything they can to make sure they grow up right and get educated. Through all that effort, the majority of asian kids will indeed grow up not becoming criminals and instead will become decently if not very well edcuated people with morals. In turn these children will eventually have their own children and will have their kids educated and grow up to be decent people etc etc.
Now look at the black community here. Many black parents either are incapable and/or don't give a damn enough to raise their kids properly. They don't care or try hard enough to make sure their kids are taught morals or are doing well in school. Thus many of them will grow up to be thugs and criminals. When you have enough black kids like this in your neighborhoods, then parents become less able to raise their kids properly even if some black parents are trying their best. Eventually these black kids grow up not very educated, more violent and more criminal and over a number of generations the result is what you see today. Most blacks doing much worse than most asians.
The point is asians are better parents and raise better children and in turn all these children growing up together in neighborhoods are POSITIVELY affecting each other thus making for peaceful, better communities and people. Contrast that to black kids who are raised poorly and when they get together in neighborhoods it because a NEGATIVE MULTIPLIER. IE when you get many bad kids together in neighborhoods it brings down those communities and makes those areas more dangerous and violent.
This is why good parenting is so important and its why blacks have so many issues simply because they SUCK at parenting.
Why wouldn't teachers have lower expectations for black students when they in general do much worse in school than anyone else year after year?
And what you call discrimination in the labor market while there might be some, could the other explaination not be that blacks are being hired less often simply because they're often less educated?
Also what exactly am I saying that's false?
Lastly while blacks might have a worse reputation overall, at least in Toronto they have it pretty good in the dating department. Besides whites, I'd say blacks are the next group who's most likely to be dating outside of their own race and have the most people to choose from in the dating pool. Asians and Indians among others are much less successful in that area, so being black does have its advantages.
You are wasting my time now. You seem to want to misconstrue what I'm saying to make it sound silly. I am not doing that to you, so why are you trying to do that to me?
So here again, for the last time, is what I am saying.
Canadian Ghetto culture, through the media (including hip hop music and culture), is undeniably influenced by American Ghetto culture. And American Ghetto culture is undeniably the outcome of racial oppression over the course of many generations. (Hip hop itself, if it existed in a world without racial oppression, would have been radically different.) So despite Canadian discrimination and oppression, poor black people here who exhibit aspects of that culture wouldn't be doing so without the American history of oppression.
What is it about that that is so hard to understand? What in that implies that I'm saying that they "feel" slavery "by proxy"?
I don't even understand why you think I'm talking about slavery. Sure, slavery was an unspeakable evil, and it would have continued to have an effect for some time after its abolition. But in the US slavery was followed by at least a century of clear racial oppression -- an oppression that presumably would have more of an impact on the present than the more distant slavery. Or do you want to deny this?
So it's been fifty years, at best, since blacks have had anything like the opportunity whites have had. (Actually, since the signing of the civil rights bills of the 60s did not automatically end racial oppression, this is false, but I'll ignore that just to simplify the discussion.)
But you might say that 50 years is enough time for American blacks to get their act together. So let me briefly explain why this is false.
American racial oppression, over the course of generations, had a terrible impact on the culture of a large number of blacks. I'm talking about people in Ghettos. Now it is a social fact that people's values and patterns of behavior tend to resemble the values and behavior of the people they most come in contact with. So what kind of people do people in these segregated communities most often come in contact with? People like themselves, that's who. So it seems to me that an isolated people with a distinctive set of values and pattern of behavior will continue, generation after generation, to repeat that pattern of behavior unless there is some kind of outside intervention. That intervention has never happened.
So that's how the past can continue to live in the present. (Actually, present-day discrimination plays a role in what I said.) I know you do not like to hear it but the truth is the truth.
This may be my last reply to you. I feel that the thread is falling off topic.
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