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Yes, but not a lot of people are aware of what a great, emerging city is. You'd have to visit to really appreciate it.
I never doubted that it is a great and emerging city.. Like most large cities it will undoubtedtly have things about It I would prefer over Toronto but on the same token Toronto isn't just frozen in time and there are many aspects that a city like Melbourne wouldn't have that Toronto would. Which one is 'better' is a matter of preference.. Neither of these cities are NYC, London or Paris.
It depends upon how you want to define "diversity". Large visible minority communities within a city are one indication. But segregation in housing, employment, and education are important to consider. How often do ethnic groups socialize with one another? Is there much upward mobility for minorities? Are there many mixed marriages? Are people integrating?
This is an excellent point and while I see Toronto as a city that has avoided the mass segregation on par with many US cities (much of that is due to historical reasons) it has not performed well in much of the above criteria. This is especially apparent when it comes to social mobility for minorities. So it has always been difficult for me to say Toronto is an example of successful integration when this huge piece of the equation has been ignored.
That's true, Toronto is really the only big English speaking city in Canada, with about 6 million in the metro, whereas Melbourne and Sydney have about 4.5 and 4.9 million respectively. Plus Perth, Brisbane and Adelaide still get their fair share. I'm seeing more immigrants settling out of the big cities too, although of course they are still the biggest magnets. Melbourne and Sydney are much closer, and in recent years more immigrants have actually selected Melbourne over Sydney. Price and lifestyle have played a part in this.
FYI
10 year growth 2001-2011
Sydney
Australian - +172,162
Migrants - +273,487 (English Speaking + 18,821, Non English + 254,666)
Melbourne
Australian - +278,760
Migrants - +298,547 (English Speaking +40,684, Non English + 257,863)
I would say very integrated in comparison to anywhere else I have been in the world, other than maybe Sao Paulo (but there, there is more divisive segregation based on income/class). For instance, consider the crew I play pickup basketball with every week: we have whites, Asians, south Asians, Blacks, Arabs, etc. So if you're open to having friends of all backgrounds, that's certainly a possibility and easy to do in Toronto. At the same time, if you want to be segregated and stay among your own kind, you can do that too.
This is an excellent point and while I see Toronto as a city that has avoided the mass segregation on par with many US cities (much of that is due to historical reasons) it has not performed well in much of the above criteria. This is especially apparent when it comes to social mobility for minorities. So it has always been difficult for me to say Toronto is an example of successful integration when this huge piece of the equation has been ignored.
I think you need to visit more workplaces in Toronto year 2014 including my own. Better yet come visit my place of residence and I'll gladly show you integration in plenty of forms. Sure there are pockets of groups who live in segregated communities some by choice for new entry support, some because they choose to because the want to keep things tight, some because they can't afford to move to a better place but most of my generation and younger in term of vis mins are doing better than a decade or even two decades ago.
There isn't some magical solution that is going to create a utopic integrated mecca but bit by bit and year by year Toronto is making steady progress. This will simply and naturally continue to happen over time and I see it happening because I live it! Having said that if a large group of relatively affluent Indians want and choose to live in more tight nit communities and same with say Koreans in parts of Nort York well why would we stop them. They choose for cultural and social reasons to keep thing tight - doesn't mean they are forced to live where they live or are on social assistance.
I know numerous gay and straight couples in in interracial marriage, I myself am married to a mestizo Venezelano.. Im sorry Edward but it always seems like nomatter how much things are becoming better and nomatter how much progress is made there is either some sort of easy solution available that all we need to do is sign a document and everything will be fine and when it comes to Toronto the glass is always going to be half empty with you.
And you are a subject matter expert on minority and ethnic integration in Toronto no doubt and in particular versus a resident of Toronto for 38 years who has lived in the Dt core and many of its environs and works at its International airport. Btw the rips U.S cities to shreds comment was made by the American poster Red John whose opinion in these forums I have come to respect. Perhaps you can discuss the matter with him.
At least I have lived in other cities and can compare the Torontonian delusion of "most multicultural city in the World" with reality in other places. Even without considering integration, places like Hawaii, Trinidad, Guyana, and Mauritius have non-Whites who hold much more political power than they do in places like Toronto where minorities are perpetually seen as just that: someone to court for ethnic votes rather than representing Toronto itself. I might change my mind once I see a city council that is 48% visible minority with a non-White mayor, and see Queen's Park with a Premier and Cabinet that reflects the province's racial makeup (backbenchers don't count because of the strict party discipline in Canada making what they say irrelevant).
Barometers for integration / interculturalism rather than superficial multiculturalism or even assimilation:
- Non-whites hold political power proportional to their population.
- Minorities do not choose doctors, babysitters, and dentists based on their ethnic group
- At events celebrating one particular ethnic culture, you see minorities from outside that ethnic group at the event. I.e. You see Korean-Canadians at an Arab festival, not just Arabs and White people.
- Heritage language classes are as multiracial as Toronto itself. I.e. you see Jamaican-Canadians and Filipino-Canadians at a Hebrew class, not just people with Jewish parents. You can tell that this Hebrew school is not in Toronto: Hebrew charter schools are expanding
- High percentages of interracial and interfaith marriage, especially between Black women and non-Black men, and Asian men and non-Asian women, and Indian-Canadians with non-Indian-Canadians, because these types of relationships go against established stereotypes.
At least I have lived in other cities and can compare the Torontonian delusion of "most multicultural city in the World" with reality in other places. Even without considering integration, places like Hawaii, Trinidad, Guyana, and Mauritius have non-Whites who hold much more political power than they do in places like Toronto where minorities are perpetually seen as just that: someone to court for ethnic votes rather than representing Toronto itself. I might change my mind once I see a city council that is 48% visible minority with a non-White mayor, and see Queen's Park with a Premier and Cabinet that reflects the province's racial makeup (backbenchers don't count because of the strict party discipline in Canada making what they say irrelevant).
Barometers for integration / interculturalism rather than superficial multiculturalism or even assimilation:
- Non-whites hold political power proportional to their population.
- Minorities do not choose doctors, babysitters, and dentists based on their ethnic group
- At events celebrating one particular ethnic culture, you see minorities from outside that ethnic group at the event. I.e. You see Korean-Canadians at an Arab festival, not just Arabs and White people.
- Heritage language classes are as multiracial as Toronto itself. I.e. you see Jamaican-Canadians and Filipino-Canadians at a Hebrew class, not just people with Jewish parents. You can tell that this Hebrew school is not in Toronto: *Advertisement
- High percentages of interracial and interfaith marriage, especially between Black women and non-Black men, and Asian men and non-Asian women, and Indian-Canadians with non-Indian-Canadians, because these types of relationships go against established stereotypes.
I dunno bud you are talking to a white guy from Toronto married to a mestizo Venezolano who works for a Sri Lankan Engineer. I grew up in the Jane and Finch area of Toronto and my Vietnamese, Jamaican, Guyanese friends all have pretty good salaries, Some are in interracial couplings like me some not but most are quite happy and content and nicely integrated into society.
Politics well dunno maybe you should look at Provincial and Federal vis min representation it might surprise you. Toronto in large part helped to elect N.A's first openly gay head of government and most likely soon to be Asian Mayor. As I said to you earlier btw - chat with Red John from Chicago in these forums about his impression of Toronto on his visit here last month.
I think you need to visit more workplaces in Toronto year 2014 including my own. Better yet come visit my place of residence and I'll gladly show you integration in plenty of forms. Sure there are pockets of groups who live in segregated communities some by choice for new entry support, some because they choose to because the want to keep things tight, some because they can't afford to move to a better place but most of my generation and younger in term of vis mins are doing better than a decade or even two decades ago. There isn't some magical solution that is going to create a utopic integrated mecca but bit by bit and year by year Toronto is making steady progress. This will simply and naturally continue to happen over time and I see it happening because I live it! Having said that if a large group of relatively affluent Indians want and choose to live in more tight nit communities and same with say Koreans in parts of Nort York well why would we stop them. They choose for cultural and social reasons to keep thing tight - doesn't mean they are forced to live where they live or are on social assistance.
I know numerous gay and straight couples in in interracial marriage, I myself am married to a mestizo Venezelano.. Im sorry Edward but it always seems like nomatter how much things are becoming better and nomatter how much progress is made there is either some sort of easy solution available that all we need to do is sign a document and everything will be fine and when it comes to Toronto the glass is always going to be half empty.
Please show me the progress in numbers then. Show me how the income gap has lessened or the unemployment gap between visible minorities and whites in Toronto. So quite frankly things are not getting better, just because a few folks of different colours are working at your company.
We are doing our part as visible minorities. 1st generation VM in Toronto have higher education attainment than 2nd generation and higher white Canadians, but STILL have a higher unemployment rate. So how is it that we are sending our kids to school and educating them better than the establishment, but still being left behind.
Hard data is the only way to separate reality from anecdotal.
As far as interracial marriage is concerned, that is wonderful but not rare. Brazil and the US currently are the two nations with the highest rate of interracial marriage per capita in the world. Does that mean that they should pat themselves on the back when it comes to racial equality? The only way to get better is to be critical, this positive glass is half full attitude is what holds you back from facing reality.
Please show me the progress in numbers then. Show me how the income gap has lessened or the unemployment gap between visible minorities and whites in Toronto. So quite frankly things are not getting better, just because a few folks of different colours are working at your company.
We are doing our part as visible minorities. 1st generation VM in Toronto have higher education attainment than 2nd generation and higher white Canadians, but STILL have a higher unemployment rate. So how is it that we are sending our kids to school and educating them better than the establishment, but still being left behind.
Hard data is the only way to separate reality from anecdotal.
As far as interracial marriage is concerned, that is wonderful but not rare. Brazil and the US currently are the two nations with the highest rate of interracial marriage per capita in the world. Does that mean that they should pat themselves on the back when it comes to racial equality? The only way to get better is to be critical, this positive glass is half full attitude is what holds you back from facing reality.
How many places have to contend with the number of not just newly arrived vis mins but also white etnicities and cultures from all over on a per capita basis save for maybe NYC - so I think that there is a greater challenge for Toronto not because of some hardwired racism but simply sheer volume of Fobs both vis min and not.
It doesn't take hard numbers or stats that really can be cherry picked to prove a point one way or the other that progress is being made for those who have been here more than a decade or two you can simply see in the houses they live in, cars they drive, restaurants they eat at and places they shop. Go house shopping in Mississauga, Brampton, Markham or even to one of those many condo's being developed and you'll see plenty of non whites buying these places they clearly aren't welfare cases are they? You need stats to see these things - you have been in Boston too long! Anyway sure established whites will have a leg up but you can't tell me that large swaths of Indians and Chinese in particular aren't well on their own way to establishment in the GTA you'd have to be blind not to see it, or too far removed from it and out of touch waiting for new hard data instead of exoeriencing it!
How many places have to contend with the number of not just newly arrived vis mins but also white etnicities and cultures from all over on a per capita basis save for maybe NYC - so I think that there is a greater challenge for Toronto not because of some hardwired racism but simply sheer volume of Fobs both vis min and not.
It doesn't take hard numbers or stats that really can be cherry picked to prove a point one way or the other that progress is being made for those who have been here more than a decade or two you can simply see in the houses they live in, cars they drive, restaurants they eat at and places they shop. Go house shopping in Mississauga, Brampton, Markham or even to one of those many condo's being developed and you'll see plenty of non whites buying these places they clearly aren't welfare cases are they? You need stats to see these things - you have been in Boston too long! Anyway sure established whites will have a leg up but you can't tell me that large swaths of Indians and Chinese in particular aren't well on their own way to establishment in the GTA you'd have to be blind not to see it, or too far removed from it and out of touch waiting for new hard data instead of exoeriencing it!
Fusion lets just agree to disagree. If I've been away from Toronto too long to form an informed opinion, then you surely have not spent nearly enough time living outside of Toronto to compare it to elsewhere. Trust me you would be shocked at how regular it is to see people of colour excel in everyday life in other cities. I am happy that I have that perspective to fall back on.
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