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I suppose you can have two parents in one bedroom and two kids in another but you have to admit, it is a bit cramped. Certainly not impossible and it may be all some people can afford but I think most people would desire more space is my point. Also, when people have kids (and I don't have any yet), I know they want to be around good schools, community centers, hockey practice, little leagues, etc. and all that stuff. Are these around is another question.
Desire is different from need, or what one can afford.
Aren't millions of people in Paris and Tokyo living just fine? I don't perceived their QOL so much worse just because they have to share some space.
I used to live in the situation exactly the same you described. My brother and I always shared a bedroom until he turned 18 and went to college, while my parents take the master bedroom. We also had a pretty small living which is about 150sf for dining and entertaining. Nobody including my mother ever complained about the place being too cramped.
I think you are too stuck with the typical Canadian lifestyle and find it hard to accept anything different.
As to community centres, schools, amenities etc, again, chicken and egg. We don't have them near downtown condos because most families refuse to live there. In Europe, Asia as well as NYC, central city has all the best schools, and best of everything.
Take a look at the article I posted... DT condo living wouldn't be for every family of course, but there could very well be plenty enough people who do find the appeals of DT Condo living appealing.. I just don't think Toronto or the GTA is moving in the direction of a city that is going to accommodate growth with traditional housing a la the 'American Dream' - white picket fence with a big yard an nice sized house - probably a pipe dream for the GTA now..
I haven't read it yet but I will. I'm sure times and things will change. But I will say that most people I still know today with families do retreat to the "burbs". Except for those that afford midtown or something on the west end. Wanting to be around good schools/family-friendly communities seems to be the big driver.
yes, as I mentioned in a previous thread, renting is exceptionally affordable in Toronto, including central Toronto.
If owning a home hurts one's quality of life too much, there is no reason in insisting that lifestyle. Renting all one's life will be just fine. So much more disposal income to dine out, travel, enjoy art instead of worrying about payment of mortgage every day.
Oddly enough, my partner and I could actually afford a condo more than most who probably overextend themselves but we just can't justify it when we can rent a decent sized place for 1200 per month... We don't need something shiny and new anyway and are not status conscious people. Having said that, I won't judge those who are... They live for their place..
Desire is different from need, or what one can afford.
Aren't millions of people in Paris and Tokyo living just fine? I don't perceived their QOL so much worse just because they have to share some space.
I used to live in the situation exactly the same you described. My brother and I always shared a bedroom until he turned 18 and went to college, while my parents take the master bedroom. We also had a pretty small living which is about 150sf for dining and entertaining. Nobody including my mother ever complained about the place being too cramped.
I think you are too stuck with the typical Canadian lifestyle and find it hard to accept anything different.
As to community centres, schools, amenities etc, again, chicken and egg. We don't have them near downtown condos because most families refuse to live there. In Europe, Asia as well as NYC, central city has all the best schools, and best of everything.
You're right, I wasn't raised in a family of 4 in a 2 bedroom condo so I'm not used to living like that and I wouldn't want to raise a family in such cramped quarters. I would say most people in the GTA are not used to it. For the next generation coming up or someone who is used to it like yourself, they may be ok with it. But it's not how I want to live and it's my personal choice. I'm not a suburbs guy either, can't stand it. I prefer a small house in the city, I'm ok with a semi near the subway and walkable to amenities in a neighborhood convenient to downtown but not in the core of downtown.
Oddly enough, my partner and I could actually afford a condo more than most who probably overextend themselves but we just can't justify it when we can rent a decent sized place for 1200 per month... We don't need something shiny and new anyway and are not status conscious people. Having said that, I won't judge those who are... They live for their place..
Sounds like the financially prudent thing to do. A lot maintenance fees alone are creeping up more than half your rent.
Sounds like the financially prudent thing to do. A lot maintenance fees alone are creeping up more than half your rent.
Most of my friends with condo's are paying between 1700-2000 dollars per month for their mortgage and fees... We could carry a 2000 dollar mortgage/fee combo but at the same time paying 1200 dollars a month utilities included by renting is an additional 800 dollars a month that we can use to further invest and travel (which is our passion). Even with the mortgage we could afford to travel and invest but obviously not as much so for us renting just works and makes sense.. When we retire, we won't be living here because its too expensive vs other places which give you better weather and much much better value for your retirement dollar ie some S.A and S.E Asian locales..
Now if this were in NYC, SF, or Boston where rent is exorbitantly high then I'd probably advocate buying a small condo if you could afford the down payment. The rent in those cities (3-5k for 2 bed) could probably rival monthly mortgage payments anyway.
You're right, I wasn't raised in a family of 4 in a 2 bedroom condo so I'm not used to living like that and I wouldn't want to raise a family in such cramped quarters. I would say most people in the GTA are not used to it. For the next generation coming up or someone who is used to it like yourself, they may be ok with it. But it's not how I want to live and it's my personal choice. I'm not a suburbs guy either, can't stand it. I prefer a small house in the city, I'm ok with a semi near the subway and walkable to amenities in a neighborhood convenient to downtown but not in the core of downtown.
don't get me wrong - I am not saying having more space is a bad thing, or a bad desire. Even in Asian cities, people would prefer large space. that's human nature.
If I could afford it, I would buy a 1500sf house in Leslieville or preferably Moore Park too. But I can't, neither can majority of Torontonians. Big and successful cities get increasing expensive, especially when it comes to housing price and people who don't make tons of money will just have to accept this fact. Life decisions is about maximizing your utilities given the available resources. It is never about "what I want", and it is silly to say I refuse to live in a 600sf condo no matter what as if it were completely livable.
I think you are a successful person career wise and you probably can afford providing a typical Canadian lifestyle for yourself and future children. What about the average people with family income of $68k (more like $50k after tax)? Any single family home is completely beyond their reach anywhere near the subway lines, not to mention in central areas. Median detached house price in 416 is about 950K, and well above 650k for semis. Do you think owning one is realistic for those average families?
Then they have two options: settle with smaller places and abandon their Canadian dream, or live somewhere 40 miles from work and the city and suffer excorticating commute every single day until they retire for the pride of owning a Canadian home. It is their choice.
Why have their been a boom in downtown condos? because people are sick of long commute (thanks to our incompetent politicians who kept drawing subway maps instead of building things) and finally accept condo living. Outside big cities, do people do that? Not really, but here we go, tens of thousands of Canadians living like Asians in the sky.
Is that so bad? Not at all. It is totally a good trend. More compact cities are more efficient, and the sheer density support a whole high level of retail, which makes life a lot more interesting than the typical low density Ajax suburbs with nothing but houses and generic chain stores.
don't get me wrong - I am not saying having more space is a bad thing, or a bad desire. Even in Asian cities, people would prefer large space. that's human nature.
If I could afford it, I would buy a 1500sf house in Leslieville or preferably Moore Park too. But I can't, neither can majority of Torontonians. Big and successful cities get increasing expensive, especially when it comes to housing price and people who don't make tons of money will just have to accept this fact. Life decisions is about maximizing your utilities given the available resources. It is never about "what I want", and it is silly to say I refuse to live in a 600sf condo no matter what as if it were completely livable.
I think you are a successful person career wise and you probably can afford providing a typical Canadian lifestyle for yourself and future children. What about the average people with family income of $68k (more like $50k after tax)? Any single family home is completely beyond their reach anywhere near the subway lines, not to mention in central areas. Median detached house price in 416 is about 950K, and well above 650k for semis. Do you think owning one is realistic for those average families?
Then they have two options: settle with smaller places and abandon their Canadian dream, or live somewhere 40 miles from work and the city and suffer excorticating commute every single day until they retire for the pride of owning a Canadian home. It is their choice.
Why have their been a boom in downtown condos? because people are sick of long commute (thanks to our incompetent politicians who kept drawing subway maps instead of building things) and finally accept condo living. Outside big cities, do people do that? Not really, but here we go, tens of thousands of Canadians living like Asians in the sky.
Is that so bad? Not at all. It is totally a good trend. More compact cities are more efficient, and the sheer density support a whole high level of retail, which makes life a lot more interesting than the typical low density Ajax suburbs with nothing but houses and generic chain stores.
Very well said. If only Toronto could build more subway, light rail lines, I'm sure residential housing prices could be stabilized as more people could live in outlying areas while having reasonable commute on high quality transit. I think this is where (western) European countries have gotten it right and where NA cities have gone horribly wrong. If only Toronto could have 6 or 7 subway lines, 4 or 5 light rail lines, and a reasonably intercity train... one always reserves the right to dream.
When we moved to our approx 900 sq/ft 2 bed/2 bath condo in Toronto, it meant getting rid of a lot of stuff. At the time, it was somewhat painful, but now we don't miss any of that "crap". It was actually liberating to unload. Now we run a very efficient ship, with no clutter or wasted space.
Our rent is approx $800-1000 less than what it would cost to "own" a similar unit in this area. While we do yearn for the stability that buying brings, we have more freedom, less stress, and the ability to move quickly should we ever want or need a change. That extra money is saved and invested each month. That is our equity.
Back in the 80's, while growing up, we viewed big houses as something to covet and aspire to. Now I see them as giant wastes of space and resources. So you can afford a mega-mansion. So what? Think of the costs associated with keeping it running, just so you can strut and swing the big di*k in front of your friends and neighbours. I now see them as nothing more than huge drains of both money and energy, and there are better things to do with both.
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