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View Poll Results: Fundamentally, Toronto is more like ...
Chicago 43 61.43%
Vancouver 27 38.57%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-15-2015, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,892 posts, read 12,768,860 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticman View Post
Oy vey. It's easy to think a city has "no personality" when you know next to nothing about it, especially when you're comparing it to a city that you're intimately familiar with and attached to.
Oh our friend laser is familiar with Toronto... Read his post history... It reads like a Shakespearean tragedy.. Doesn't have too many posts either so isn't too much effort..

This one in particular telling... Wow in just a few years T.O's club scene and women went from hero to zero..

//www.city-data.com/forum/17648190-post42.html
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Old 04-17-2015, 11:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticman View Post
^ But Toronto's core IS comparable to Chicago's. Anyone reasonable person who has seen both would easily arrive at that conclusion.
I think that any reasonable person would quite easily conclude that Chicago has a significantly larger and grander core than Toronto, and it would be pretty obvious homerism to claim otherwise.

A walk down Bloor or Yonge, followed by a walk down Michigan Ave., would make this quite apparent. Chicago simply looks and feels like a bigger, richer, grander city. The gap is probably closing, but there's still quite a gap.
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Old 04-17-2015, 11:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Toronto has tons of history/attractions/things to do for a tourist...
Not really. Toronto isn't a major tourist hub. What is so famous about Toronto in terms of tourist appeal? I guess maybe the CN tower? Montreal would probably be the leading Canadian tourist center, and I still don't think Montreal is much a global tourist player. I mean, it's no Paris or Rome or NYC or something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
With that said - you do realize Toronto gets more International visitors to it than Chicago does..
The number of international visitors has nothing to do with a city's attractiveness as a tourist center.

You think Singapore is the best tourist city in the world? Of course not. There's nothing really to see in Singapore. Someplace like Florence or Venice is only around 1,000 times more historic/culturally rich/interesting from a leisure visitor's perspective. Yet Singapore gets more visitors than even NYC or London.

And a large city bordering a country of 320 million is obviously going to get lots of international visitors. A similarly large city not bordering any nearby countries will not get as many visitors.

Chicago isn't a huge tourist center anyways, especially not for international tourists, but I think it has considerably more to do from a leisure perspective than Toronto. I mean, the museums and culture alone would be a huge difference. Chicago has world-class museums. Is the AGO even competitive with, say, the Cleveland Art Museum or Detroit Institute of Arts? I doubt it. Probably even the Albirght-Knox in Buffalo is better regarded than the AGO in art circles.

Or shopping. Would someone seriously compare Michigan Ave. to Bloor St? Unlikely. Would someone seriously claim Toronto's lakefront is better than that of Chicago? Even more unlikely. What would Toronto have from a leisure visitor perspective that would make it more appealing than Chicago?
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Old 04-17-2015, 12:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
I think that any reasonable person would quite easily conclude that Chicago has a significantly larger and grander core than Toronto, and it would be pretty obvious homerism to claim otherwise.

A walk down Bloor or Yonge, followed by a walk down Michigan Ave., would make this quite apparent. Chicago simply looks and feels like a bigger, richer, grander city. The gap is probably closing, but there's still quite a gap.
That's what I kept saying. I thought it is pretty obvious to anyone. The nicer parts of Chicago are definitely nicer than the nice parts of Toronto.

In terms of commercial districts, Yonge, Queen are pretty substandard and Bloor is not that upscale. In residential, I don't find a single upscale neighbourhood (maybe small Yorkville is the only exception which is actually not that "nice") in Toronto that is highly urban and dynamic. All posh neighbourhoods here are boring low rise residential nabes with nothing but expensive houses and trees (like Rosedale). Do we have something like the Mayfair in London, or Back Bay in Boston, Gold Coast Chicago, or Chelsea, Manhattan? Nope. It seems the rich folks in Toronto only want to live in their two story homes in the suburbs.

Yes, Chicago has the horrible southern and western neighhourhoods that hardly exist in Toronto. From a social perspective, it is a failure, but for a Chicagoan who makes decent income, that factor is irrelevant because they would never need to go there. I have lived in Toronto for 7 years, how bad or dangerous Jane/Finch or Rexdale is, whether it is perfectly safe or has 10 murders every day, doesn't affect my life whatsoever. I guess all I can say is, it is nicer to be poor in Toronto?
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Old 04-17-2015, 02:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
That's what I kept saying. I thought it is pretty obvious to anyone. The nicer parts of Chicago are definitely nicer than the nice parts of Toronto.

In terms of commercial districts, Yonge, Queen are pretty substandard and Bloor is not that upscale. In residential, I don't find a single upscale neighbourhood (maybe small Yorkville is the only exception which is actually not that "nice") in Toronto that is highly urban and dynamic. All posh neighbourhoods here are boring low rise residential nabes with nothing but expensive houses and trees (like Rosedale). Do we have something like the Mayfair in London, or Back Bay in Boston, Gold Coast Chicago, or Chelsea, Manhattan? Nope. It seems the rich folks in Toronto only want to live in their two story homes in the suburbs.

Yes, Chicago has the horrible southern and western neighhourhoods that hardly exist in Toronto. From a social perspective, it is a failure, but for a Chicagoan who makes decent income, that factor is irrelevant because they would never need to go there. I have lived in Toronto for 7 years, how bad or dangerous Jane/Finch or Rexdale is, whether it is perfectly safe or has 10 murders every day, doesn't affect my life whatsoever. I guess all I can say is, it is nicer to be poor in Toronto?
I agree with all this. Toronto, in many ways, is a more successful and sustainable and equitable city, but is not really close to Chicago in terms of the downtown core and the upscale neighborhoods. Chicago, despite all its problems, probably still has the second best downtown core in North America.
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Old 04-17-2015, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,892 posts, read 12,768,860 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
Not really. Toronto isn't a major tourist hub. What is so famous about Toronto in terms of tourist appeal? I guess maybe the CN tower? Montreal would probably be the leading Canadian tourist center, and I still don't think Montreal is much a global tourist player. I mean, it's no Paris or Rome or NYC or something.
Major tourist hub is relative.. I wouldn't contend Toronto is a major tourist hub versus the NYC's, London's, Instanbul's or Bangkok's or plenty of other high profile world cities. That is all relative. With that said, your post clearly shows a complete ignorance with respect to the number of visitors - across the board in each of Canada's cities.. Look into it and get back to me but it won't be hard for you to find out which city in Canada is the biggest tourist destination. What you think about number of visitors is irrelavent - what the facts and data support are relavent. Toronto and Vancouver are actually on more equal footing in terms of number of visitors with Montreal behind them but alas - Toronto still trumps Vancouver across the board in terms of Int, Dom and U.S visitors than Vancouver.



Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
The number of international visitors has nothing to do with a city's attractiveness as a tourist center.

You think Singapore is the best tourist city in the world? Of course not. There's nothing really to see in Singapore. Someplace like Florence or Venice is only around 1,000 times more historic/culturally rich/interesting from a leisure visitor's perspective. Yet Singapore gets more visitors than even NYC or London.

And a large city bordering a country of 320 million is obviously going to get lots of international visitors. A similarly large city not bordering any nearby countries will not get as many visitors.

Chicago isn't a huge tourist center anyways, especially not for international tourists, but I think it has considerably more to do from a leisure perspective than Toronto. I mean, the museums and culture alone would be a huge difference. Chicago has world-class museums. Is the AGO even competitive with, say, the Cleveland Art Museum or Detroit Institute of Arts? I doubt it. Probably even the Albirght-Knox in Buffalo is better regarded than the AGO in art circles.

Or shopping. Would someone seriously compare Michigan Ave. to Bloor St? Unlikely. Would someone seriously claim Toronto's lakefront is better than that of Chicago? Even more unlikely. What would Toronto have from a leisure visitor perspective that would make it more appealing than Chicago?
Number of International visitors do have things to say about a cities attractiveness to visitors - no not everything but just like you can't use one argument fully for something you can't use the other fully against either.. Toronto has quite a few high profile festivals/events that bring loads of visitors to the city specifically for said events/festivities/attractions.. I'm not going to list them here because I know who i'm talking to and the absolute futility of doing such with you.. Needless to say, Toronto wasn't the first North American city to gain the World Pride festivities for nothing - there are reasons behind things like this.. If you want to research about Toronto's events and attractions you can easily find the things that will draw people to it and many for very specific reasons.. If you don't that isn't a concern to me - it is very well known that Toronto isn't your cup of tea and that's ok - but don't try to make up facts as you go along.

As for International visitors vs Chicago - The latest stats I've looked at show Toronto still has a greater number of Non U.S International visitors to it than Chicago gets TOTAL International visitors..Yes you read that right - Toronto gets more International NON U.S visitors to it than Chicago get Total International visitors. Chicago gets more Overall visitors but 90 plus percent of them are from within the U.S so in terms of domestic visitation Chicago owns Toronto in terms of numbers - easy to understand, Chicago is in the U.S midwest an area well more populated than all of Canada.. Back to Internatonal visitors - Toronto has a larger ratio of Int to Dom visitors than Chicago. If you include U.S visitors than Toronto gets loads more Int visitors to it than Chicago. These are simply facts..

As for shopping districts/streets/appeals these things are all relative to the individual. People like Botticelli like stately/grand boulevard/clean type streets with classical grand scraper architecture.. He doesn't like street grafitti or grittyness within the core for example but many do.. Toronto's DT core actually has a whole underworld of things that will appeal to many individuals that simply won't appeal to the more 'sanitized' individuals among us.. Things that appeal to him and others are quite frankly valid to individuals like that and their reasons are understandable but this doesn't mean the arterials in Toronto aren't vibrant/urban interesting or appealing to others - it just means they aren't everyone's cup of tea and vice versa.. Some people aren't all that into stately boulavards either or if they are it only goes so far.. As i've mentiond before - There are already more people living in the DT core of Toronto (200K) than the DT core of Chicago and this will only continue as time goes by so what is more impressive is relative to what interests the person visually and simply what type of person they are and what they are interested in doing....

The AGO isn't the only high profile Museum in the city.. The ROM is actually a higher profile Museum than the AGO.. Of course, Toronto has many other smaller/niche museums - the Aga Khan museum for instance is the only one of its kind in the western hemisphere - Chicago ain't got one of those... T.O also has the sort of standard general attractions that most large cities do including Chicago - Aquarium, Opera House, Symphony Orchestra, Theme parks including one that is more visited than Six Flags in Gurnee btw - larger roller coasters. Can anyone say Hockey Hall of Fame.. Toronto also has a more extensive and impressive theatre scene than Chicago - more visitors, more broad based including a fully dedicated gay theatre. From what I know, at least in the core area Chicago doesn't have a St Lawrence Market and not sure it would have a Distillery District equivalent within or straddling as close to its core as does Toronto.. Visit Fort York when here as well and learn about a certain interesting explosion that happened at that Fort and the story behind it and that which ensued afterwards.. Very interesting stuff.. So does the city have attractions - sure it does and there are plenty but again - its up to the individual to research such things in their travels and have an open mind. When I went to Istanbul, many of the gems I visited weren't presented to me on a silver platter - I had to research and look for them and I was rewarded in spades..

As for unique/interesting shopping in Toronto - its there.. High end luxury vs Chicago- well no but Toronto doesn't have to be known for that but what it is known for for those who are interested in it is unique vintage goods - especially vintage clothing. Again, i'm not going to try and convince people one way or another - if you like Vintage goods - Toronto is certainly a city where its at.

Does Chicago have a better waterfront - sure.. Do I care... No its not really a big draw for me.. I prefer the urbanity of a city more than an impressive waterfront that has 'nice' beaches if that is such a thing at latitudes so far away from the Equator. No city on a great lake regardless of how impressive or connected it is with its waterfront is going to overly impress me more than the urban fabric of city. In the case of Toronto and Chicago they both have strong urbanity.. Some will be more impressed for different reasons with one over the other and that is fine with me - let's just not be dismissive of one vs the other because it isn't interesting or for some specific reasons more grand to you!

Enjoy this video Nola

http://www.thedistillerydistrict.com/

Last edited by fusion2; 04-17-2015 at 05:45 PM..
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Old 04-17-2015, 06:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
What you think about number of visitors is irrelavent - what the facts and data support are relavent.
Please provide us such data, then.

Again you show "visitors" which has nothing to do with tourists. Obviously Toronto will have the most visitors because it's the biggest city, biggest air hub, most immigrants, near most of the U.S. population, etc. That has nothing to do with being a tourist hub. Just because Dallas gets more visitors than Venice doesn't mean that Dallas is more of a tourist town than Venice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
As for International visitors vs Chicago - The latest stats I've looked at show Toronto still has a greater number of Non U.S International visitors to it than Chicago gets TOTAL International visitors..
I could definitely see that, but Chicago isn't a big tourist town either. Chicago is a business town much more so than a must-see global tourist destination like a NYC or Paris. Your typical international tourist to North America doesn't have Chicago or Toronto on the tourist radar. They're going to NYC, CA, FL, Vegas and the like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
And Toronto has tons and tons of immigrants compared to Chicago, so logically will gets tons and tons of visiting non-Canadians. That's family and friends, not leisure tourists aching to see the Eaton Centre.
As for shopping districts/streets/appeals these things are all relative to the individual. People like Botticelli like stately/grand boulevard/clean type streets with classical grand scraper architecture.. He doesn't like street grafitti or grittyness within the core for example but many do..
I don't think it has anything to do with this. Toronto is not that gritty and has little street grafitti. It's immaculate compared to a Rome, Athens or Berlin. But I don't think anyone on earth would compare Bloor Street with Via dei Condotti in Rome.
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Old 04-17-2015, 06:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
I agree with all this. Toronto, in many ways, is a more successful and sustainable and equitable city, but is not really close to Chicago in terms of the downtown core and the upscale neighborhoods. Chicago, despite all its problems, probably still has the second best downtown core in North America.
I wasn't impressed with the urban blight in Chicago. There's virtually none in Toronto in comparison.
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Old 04-17-2015, 06:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by valsteele View Post
I wasn't impressed with the urban blight in Chicago. There's virtually none in Toronto in comparison.
This is true. Not really relevant to the conversation, but true. No one is going to impressed with the slums in Chicago.
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Old 04-17-2015, 06:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
This is true. Not really relevant to the conversation, but true. No one is going to impressed with the slums in Chicago.
I think it's relevant since this topic has gone into the direction of which is a better city. I like Toronto better because I think it's more vibrant and safe.
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