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Old 06-14-2015, 04:49 PM
 
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I agree that the only solution to congestion in Toronto is better public transit - extension of the subway, expansion of GO train service, etc. But I think those are separate issues because still a portion of the budget has to be spent on Gardiner - it is old and falling apart, so any option would require spending. I am not sure about the calculations, but from what analysts wrote - taking the portion of Gardiner apart and turning it into Lakeshore would add 10-15 minutes of travel time one-way and that is already significant since it adds up to 20-30 min per day. I see a difference between a 45 min commute and a one hour commute. And since people who use Gardiner don't usually commute for only 20 min, but more likely 45min - 1 hour (from Markham, Richmond Hill, North York) - adding another 30 min to their commute is significant.
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Old 06-14-2015, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Cambridge, MA/London, UK
3,850 posts, read 5,265,750 times
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Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
I really hope you are joking and not being serious. The money the will spend building this idiotic hybrid option (plus adding your beloved lanes) will cost the city the equivalent of the downtown relief subway line, along with a couple of LRT lines that could've been built.

The ONLY solution to congestion is building better transit, medium to high density neighborhoods, and prevent sprawling. If you travel at all to other major cities world wide, you'll notice that it is in the cities, not far-flung suburbs, where the vast majority of people in this world will live. More efficient allocation of resources, energy savings, less congestion, better access to transit, less waste. What is it that's so hard to understand?

And bury the Gardiner? Ha! Do you realize how long and how much $$$ Boston spent to bury a few miles of highway underneath its downtown? Boston's "Big Dig" was a 20+ year project, costing over $22 billion USD, and became the most expensive infrastructure project in U.S. history - all for 3 miles of buried highways (the cost ballooned by 10x the initial estimate). Oh and it still doesn't solve the congestion problem - try driving in the buried sections of I-93 between 4 - 8 pm everyday: bumper to bumper chaos when entering and exiting the tunnels just like the Gardiner, except that this one is underground. Well I guess it's all worth it if we stick to the old saying: "Out of sight, out of mind".
We all know the negatives associated with the Big Dig. It went WAY over budget, over time, was used to pad the pockets of the politically connected hacks, etc...You know, basically how every major project has gone in Boston for the past 50 years.

With that said, it made the city a much better place to live. Imagine Boston with a massive freeway cutting off The North End from the rest of the city? The Greenway has become one of the most impressive new public spaces in North America and is getting better every month. Food trucks, concerts, festivals, dance performances, open bar events (Yeah they got in trouble for the open bar thing), art shows /exhibits, waterfront movies, farmers markets are all weekly events on this stretch that used to be a disgusting freeway. Just the fact that you can walk from Faneuil Hall to the North End almost completely pedestrian only pathways/streets is a huge win for people who love walkable cities. Plus they are now developing the parcels surrounding the area (Public Market, International market, Hotels, Condos, Museum, Apartments, all with park or Harbor facing retail)

Now imagine doing the same in Toronto and opening up that entire area to pedestrians and not cars? It makes the city a more livable and vibrant place and also allows the cars to funnel through as before. Surely Toronto can learn from the mistakes of the Big Dig and bring the project in closer to budget? I know its ambitious, but it can be done. Or maybe I'm just being naive.
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Old 06-14-2015, 10:36 PM
 
2,829 posts, read 3,162,437 times
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Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
We all know the negatives associated with the Big Dig. It went WAY over budget, over time, was used to pad the pockets of the politically connected hacks, etc...You know, basically how every major project has gone in Boston for the past 50 years.

With that said, it made the city a much better place to live. Imagine Boston with a massive freeway cutting off The North End from the rest of the city? The Greenway has become one of the most impressive new public spaces in North America and is getting better every month. Food trucks, concerts, festivals, dance performances, open bar events (Yeah they got in trouble for the open bar thing), art shows /exhibits, waterfront movies, farmers markets are all weekly events on this stretch that used to be a disgusting freeway. Just the fact that you can walk from Faneuil Hall to the North End almost completely pedestrian only pathways/streets is a huge win for people who love walkable cities. Plus they are now developing the parcels surrounding the area (Public Market, International market, Hotels, Condos, Museum, Apartments, all with park or Harbor facing retail)

Now imagine doing the same in Toronto and opening up that entire area to pedestrians and not cars? It makes the city a more livable and vibrant place and also allows the cars to funnel through as before. Surely Toronto can learn from the mistakes of the Big Dig and bring the project in closer to budget? I know its ambitious, but it can be done. Or maybe I'm just being naive.
The area that's being discussed isn't densely populated at the moment. East Gardiner consists mainly of abandoned factories, warehouses, and a few condos here and there. I just don't see why the need to spend billions digging a tunnel. Instead, making that area a wide boulevard with bike lanes, dedicated LRT lanes, along with new land for commercial and residential development is a much more cost-effective and actually feasible plan. If Toronto can't even get its acts together to build a DRL, I just don't see how on earth they are going to finance a highway tunnel dig that will likely cost tens of billions. You can bet that the Ontario provincial government will not finance a penny for projects like that, because the province's "Big Move 2030" Comprehensive Transport Strategy is all about consolidating urban space and greater investment into public transit. There is simply no appetite to spend billions building another expensive highway, whether it's above or below ground.

I don't know if you drive in Boston for work. When I lived there and had to drive to downtown for work, I-93 tunnels were almost ALWAYS congested during work hours. Yes, it beautified the city by providing open space for the water front, but did very little in terms of relieving congestion for downtown Boston. Whether a highway is above or underground, it still doesn't change the fact that there's an ever increasing number of cars flowing into downtown Boston. Have you ever tried exiting the I-93 tunnel into a downtown street between 4-8 pm? It's simply chaos even before you reach the surface. Many times when I was taking taxi or Uber, I've encountered drivers who simply refuse to drive to downtown during those times.

Can you imagine how different the situation would've been had Boston invested those $22 billion from the Big Dig into improving its subway and LRT systems, such as extending the Red Line? That kind of money back then could've easily funded a full-scale modern LRT system on ROW or a few extra subway lines with money to spare. But no, instead, $22 billion were all dumped into 3 miles of covered up freeway.
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Old 06-14-2015, 10:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dagny_taggart View Post
I agree that the only solution to congestion in Toronto is better public transit - extension of the subway, expansion of GO train service, etc. But I think those are separate issues because still a portion of the budget has to be spent on Gardiner - it is old and falling apart, so any option would require spending. I am not sure about the calculations, but from what analysts wrote - taking the portion of Gardiner apart and turning it into Lakeshore would add 10-15 minutes of travel time one-way and that is already significant since it adds up to 20-30 min per day. I see a difference between a 45 min commute and a one hour commute. And since people who use Gardiner don't usually commute for only 20 min, but more likely 45min - 1 hour (from Markham, Richmond Hill, North York) - adding another 30 min to their commute is significant.
That assumption is based upon the fact that there is no addition to services or new projects for public transit in the city. If our transit situation stays as it is today, then yes, there is a possibility of adding 10-15 min per day. However, that's an absurd assumption, given that GO's Regional Express Rail will ramp up all services by 50% by 2020, and several key lines (Lakeshore East, West) will be introducing 15-min or less frequency trains all day by 2022. These projects are not projections or forecasts - these are solidly funded projects that have already begun expansion and construction as we speak. That change alone will have a significant impact on easing congestion on the Gardiner, as Lakeshore East and West services run exactly parallel to Gardiner/QEW. That assumption also does not take into account the completion of the Eglington Crosstown by 2021 and its massive effect on easing congestion throughout the transit and road system. Furthermore, by 2020, we will also see the completion of the Hurontario LRT, and possibly a few other LRT systems currently in the planning stage - which will link Mississauga directly to Toronto and GO Transit Lakeshore West service, and ease the number of vehicles traveling into Toronto originating from Mississauga.
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:13 AM
 
1,300 posts, read 1,039,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
I really hope you are joking and not being serious. The money the will spend building this idiotic hybrid option (plus adding your beloved lanes) will cost the city the equivalent of the downtown relief subway line, along with a couple of LRT lines that could've been built.

The ONLY solution to congestion is building better transit, medium to high density neighborhoods, and prevent sprawling. If you travel at all to other major cities world wide, you'll notice that it is in the cities, not far-flung suburbs, where the vast majority of people in this world will live. More efficient allocation of resources, energy savings, less congestion, better access to transit, less waste. What is it that's so hard to understand?
More transit might work if the city wasn't so spread out outside of the downtown core, but as it stands more transit isn't the complete solution to Toronto's traffic problems. I really wish Toronto/GTA wasn't so spread out and instead was more dense like it is in places like Hong Kong, but its too late for that and the reality is that no matter how much transit you build, many people won't use transit because in most cases its MUCH less convenient than driving.

Take myself for example. I live in the suburbs and I haven't used the TTC on any regular basis for over a decade now because transit outside the core is slow and inefficient and its much quicker and easier to drive. Going to a large mall that's closest to me using the TTC would take well over an hour even in moderate traffic while driving to that same mall would take no more than 30-40 minutes under even heavy traffic and no more than 20-25 minutes under light to moderate traffic. So you tell me what would be the incentive to use public transit when its so much better to just drive? If you live downtown then I can understand why more transit would make sense, but anywhere else in the city and driving is the MUCH BETTER option.

And going back to the Gardiner east, although I'm not adverse to tearing it down, I really don't see the big deal in keeping it either as it would be nice to keep the DVP and Gardiner linked rather than having to get off the DVP onto a boulevard and then get back onto the Gardiner if that's how its suppose to work. And anyone who says that this would add 'only a few extra minutes' to commute times, I would challenge that number.



Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
We all know the negatives associated with the Big Dig. It went WAY over budget, over time, was used to pad the pockets of the politically connected hacks, etc...You know, basically how every major project has gone in Boston for the past 50 years.

With that said, it made the city a much better place to live. Imagine Boston with a massive freeway cutting off The North End from the rest of the city? The Greenway has become one of the most impressive new public spaces in North America and is getting better every month. Food trucks, concerts, festivals, dance performances, open bar events (Yeah they got in trouble for the open bar thing), art shows /exhibits, waterfront movies, farmers markets are all weekly events on this stretch that used to be a disgusting freeway. Just the fact that you can walk from Faneuil Hall to the North End almost completely pedestrian only pathways/streets is a huge win for people who love walkable cities. Plus they are now developing the parcels surrounding the area (Public Market, International market, Hotels, Condos, Museum, Apartments, all with park or Harbor facing retail)

Now imagine doing the same in Toronto and opening up that entire area to pedestrians and not cars? It makes the city a more livable and vibrant place and also allows the cars to funnel through as before. Surely Toronto can learn from the mistakes of the Big Dig and bring the project in closer to budget? I know its ambitious, but it can be done. Or maybe I'm just being naive.
I looked at a map and some photos of the Greenway in Boston and I'd say at least a good portion of it seems pretty useless and pointless since large parts of it are narrow strips of grass and walkways sandwiched in between lanes of traffic going on either side of it. Its kinda like the strip of parkettes you have on University ave in downtown here that few people ever use because there's traffic on either side. I mean who wants to hang around a park that's surrounded by noise and pollution?

Also while I get that its nice to have a city that is pedestrian friendly, you can't make the entire city all for pedestrians without any regard for vehicles. I mean seriously downtown Toronto already has PLENTY of attractions and greenspace for pedestrians and I don't see how removing that stretch of the Gardiner east is going to make that huge a difference in the grand scheme of things. Also there's still a ton of space that has yet to be developed along the waterfront and elsewhere in the core, so why not finish those spaces up for people before worrying about the Gardiner?

And also if you want to REALLY want to have a chance at getting cars off the road, how about creating a 'bike highway' outside of downtown so that it will make it more convenient for bikers to get to and from the core as well as around town? Right now there are literally hundreds if not thousands of kilometres of little used sidewalks in the suburbs that really serve no purpose at the moment. No matter if the weather is good or bad, if you drive around Scarborough, Markham, North York, Etobicoke, Richmond Hill etc, there's practically zero people using those sidewalks on a daily basis. Instead of having all those sidewalks be nothing but a waste of space, why not repave one side of sidewalks along major roads with asphalt and turn that useless sidewalk into a useful bike lane?

You do this for a number of major streets running north to south and east to west across the city and all of a sudden you've created a useful bike network that people would actually use to get around town. I'd say this would be MUCH more effective at reducing the number of cars on the road and also be the most cost effective compared to adding more transit. And the best part is you wouldn't have to create new bike lanes as the sidewalks are already there and just need to be converted, so bikers wouldn't have to worry about cars hurting them as there is now separation and drivers wouldn't have to worry about hitting bikers on the road. Everyone is happy and people get more exercise too and Toronto finally has a useful bike network.

That's a little off topic, but yeah I really wish Toronto would do something like this instead of always thinking that adding more transit is the key to reducing traffic in this city.

Last edited by Max Sterling; 06-15-2015 at 06:31 AM..
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Old 06-15-2015, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Cambridge, MA/London, UK
3,850 posts, read 5,265,750 times
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Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
The area that's being discussed isn't densely populated at the moment. East Gardiner consists mainly of abandoned factories, warehouses, and a few condos here and there. I just don't see why the need to spend billions digging a tunnel. Instead, making that area a wide boulevard with bike lanes, dedicated LRT lanes, along with new land for commercial and residential development is a much more cost-effective and actually feasible plan. If Toronto can't even get its acts together to build a DRL, I just don't see how on earth they are going to finance a highway tunnel dig that will likely cost tens of billions. You can bet that the Ontario provincial government will not finance a penny for projects like that, because the province's "Big Move 2030" Comprehensive Transport Strategy is all about consolidating urban space and greater investment into public transit. There is simply no appetite to spend billions building another expensive highway, whether it's above or below ground.

I don't know if you drive in Boston for work. When I lived there and had to drive to downtown for work, I-93 tunnels were almost ALWAYS congested during work hours. Yes, it beautified the city by providing open space for the water front, but did very little in terms of relieving congestion for downtown Boston. Whether a highway is above or underground, it still doesn't change the fact that there's an ever increasing number of cars flowing into downtown Boston. Have you ever tried exiting the I-93 tunnel into a downtown street between 4-8 pm? It's simply chaos even before you reach the surface. Many times when I was taking taxi or Uber, I've encountered drivers who simply refuse to drive to downtown during those times.

Can you imagine how different the situation would've been had Boston invested those $22 billion from the Big Dig into improving its subway and LRT systems, such as extending the Red Line? That kind of money back then could've easily funded a full-scale modern LRT system on ROW or a few extra subway lines with money to spare. But no, instead, $22 billion were all dumped into 3 miles of covered up freeway.
Well city council voted to go forward with the study, so let's see the cost estimates they come back with in September. It is at the very least worth looking into. Of course if the provincial government is not willing to chip in, then it is a non starter. The reason the Big Dig went ahead is because the federal government picked up 60% of the tab. Without that it would have never happened.

I don't drive to work downtown as I work in Longwood. So I either take the shuttle, The T or jog to work in the mornings. So how things are at that hour on a workday is really not something I am that familiar with as you are. Of course I would want that money set aside for transit related projects, but there is no reason why we can't do both. The big dig made the city more liveable and now it seems like the transit investments are finally starting to become a priority after years of neglect.

I wish I could go into more detail but I am typing on my phone from the airport. Thanks to the Big Dig I was able to get here in 20 minutes through the tunnel.
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Old 06-15-2015, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Cambridge, MA/London, UK
3,850 posts, read 5,265,750 times
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Originally Posted by Max Sterling View Post
More transit might work if the city wasn't so spread out outside of the downtown core, but as it stands more transit isn't the complete solution to Toronto's traffic problems. I really wish Toronto/GTA wasn't so spread out and instead was more dense like it is in places like Hong Kong, but its too late for that and the reality is that no matter how much transit you build, many people won't use transit because in most cases its MUCH less convenient than driving.

Take myself for example. I live in the suburbs and I haven't used the TTC on any regular basis for over a decade now because transit outside the core is slow and inefficient and its much quicker and easier to drive. Going to a large mall that's closest to me using the TTC would take well over an hour even in moderate traffic while driving to that same mall would take no more than 30-40 minutes under even heavy traffic and no more than 20-25 minutes under light to moderate traffic. So you tell me what would be the incentive to use public transit when its so much better to just drive? If you live downtown then I can understand why more transit would make sense, but anywhere else in the city and driving is the MUCH BETTER option.

And going back to the Gardiner east, although I'm not adverse to tearing it down, I really don't see the big deal in keeping it either as it would be nice to keep the DVP and Gardiner linked rather than having to get off the DVP onto a boulevard and then get back onto the Gardiner if that's how its suppose to work. And anyone who says that this would add 'only a few extra minutes' to commute times, I would challenge that number.





I looked at a map and some photos of the Greenway in Boston and I'd say at least a good portion of it seems pretty useless and pointless since large parts of it are narrow strips of grass and walkways sandwiched in between lanes of traffic going on either side of it. Its kinda like the strip of parkettes you have on University ave in downtown here that few people ever use because there's traffic on either side. I mean who wants to hang around a park that's surrounded by noise and pollution?

Also while I get that its nice to have a city that is pedestrian friendly, you can't make the entire city all for pedestrians without any regard for vehicles. I mean seriously downtown Toronto already has PLENTY of attractions and greenspace for pedestrians and I don't see how removing that stretch of the Gardiner east is going to make that huge a difference in the grand scheme of things. Also there's still a ton of space that has yet to be developed along the waterfront and elsewhere in the core, so why not finish those spaces up for people before worrying about the Gardiner?

And also if you want to REALLY want to have a chance at getting cars off the road, how about creating a 'bike highway' outside of downtown so that it will make it more convenient for bikers to get to and from the core as well as around town? Right now there are literally hundreds if not thousands of kilometres of little used sidewalks in the suburbs that really serve no purpose at the moment. No matter if the weather is good or bad, if you drive around Scarborough, Markham, North York, Etobicoke, Richmond Hill etc, there's practically zero people using those sidewalks on a daily basis. Instead of having all those sidewalks be nothing but a waste of space, why not repave one side of sidewalks along major roads with asphalt and turn that useless sidewalk into a useful bike lane?

You do this for a number of major streets running north to south and east to west across the city and all of a sudden you've created a useful bike network that people would actually use to get around town. I'd say this would be MUCH more effective at reducing the number of cars on the road and also be the most cost effective compared to adding more transit. And the best part is you wouldn't have to create new bike lanes as the sidewalks are already there and just need to be converted, so bikers wouldn't have to worry about cars hurting them as there is now separation and drivers wouldn't have to worry about hitting bikers on the road. Everyone is happy and people get more exercise too and Toronto finally has a useful bike network.

That's a little off topic, but yeah I really wish Toronto would do something like this instead of always thinking that adding more transit is the key to reducing traffic in this city.
Max as I said above I have a flight to catch but the bike highway idea is something that I would love to talk about. Pretty interesting.

As far as the greenway is concerned you are off base. But that is the difference between actually spending time in a public space versus looking at it on the map. Plus it is not only the greenspace (which is heavily utilized) but the parcels surrounding it for development. Plus many of those exits are going to be decked and further developed in the next phase.

Toronto has a lot of great public spaces but many people, myself included do not think it is nearly enough. Can you really ever have enough In a city that is growing as fast as Toronto is?
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Well city council voted to go forward with the study, so let's see the cost estimates they come back with in September. It is at the very least worth looking into. Of course if the provincial government is not willing to chip in, then it is a non starter. The reason the Big Dig went ahead is because the federal government picked up 60% of the tab. Without that it would have never happened.

I don't drive to work downtown as I work in Longwood. So I either take the shuttle, The T or jog to work in the mornings. So how things are at that hour on a workday is really not something I am that familiar with as you are. Of course I would want that money set aside for transit related projects, but there is no reason why we can't do both. The big dig made the city more liveable and now it seems like the transit investments are finally starting to become a priority after years of neglect.

I wish I could go into more detail but I am typing on my phone from the airport. Thanks to the Big Dig I was able to get here in 20 minutes through the tunnel.
Thanks to investment in transit, I could get to Pearson from downtown Toronto, a distance of 24 km, in exactly 25 minutes - every hour of the day - without worry for traffic or a hefty uber/taxi bill.

I know we are comparing apples to oranges, but any investment in mass transit will benefit a much higher number of people, at a lower cost per capita, than investment in mostly single-user autobahns. Yes, both types of infrastructure need to be improved, that's a given. However, long term investment in transit, especially in high density cities, will benefit BOTH individual drivers and transit users by taking cars off the road.

Again, I still think that $22 billion USD of money poured into the Big Dig could've been used in so many other transit improvement projects. For example: the Toronto Hurontario LRT is projected to cost $1.6 billion for a 23-km long fully-separated LRT line; Boston's current Green Line LRT extension costs $2 billion for a 7-km extension; Toronto's Eglinton Crosstown - a 20-km long underground/above ground subway-like LRT system - costs $4.6 billion CAD currently under construction. Think about how many brand new LRT and mass transit lines could've been constructed in Greater Boston using just a portion of that $22 billion used for a 3-mile underground highway, and the transformational effect these mass transit lines would have on a city like Boston?

I'm not arguing against the merits of a project like the Big Dig. It's built, it's done, and it works well in terms of funneling drivers who are passing through downtown Boston on I-93. I just question the allocation of so much monetary resources into a single project, and its exact cost/benefit to easing congestion and transportation in the long term in a city like Boston.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:33 AM
 
2,829 posts, read 3,162,437 times
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Originally Posted by Max Sterling View Post
More transit might work if the city wasn't so spread out outside of the downtown core, but as it stands more transit isn't the complete solution to Toronto's traffic problems. I really wish Toronto/GTA wasn't so spread out and instead was more dense like it is in places like Hong Kong, but its too late for that and the reality is that no matter how much transit you build, many people won't use transit because in most cases its MUCH less convenient than driving.

Take myself for example. I live in the suburbs and I haven't used the TTC on any regular basis for over a decade now because transit outside the core is slow and inefficient and its much quicker and easier to drive. Going to a large mall that's closest to me using the TTC would take well over an hour even in moderate traffic while driving to that same mall would take no more than 30-40 minutes under even heavy traffic and no more than 20-25 minutes under light to moderate traffic. So you tell me what would be the incentive to use public transit when its so much better to just drive? If you live downtown then I can understand why more transit would make sense, but anywhere else in the city and driving is the MUCH BETTER option.

And going back to the Gardiner east, although I'm not adverse to tearing it down, I really don't see the big deal in keeping it either as it would be nice to keep the DVP and Gardiner linked rather than having to get off the DVP onto a boulevard and then get back onto the Gardiner if that's how its suppose to work. And anyone who says that this would add 'only a few extra minutes' to commute times, I would challenge that number.





I looked at a map and some photos of the Greenway in Boston and I'd say at least a good portion of it seems pretty useless and pointless since large parts of it are narrow strips of grass and walkways sandwiched in between lanes of traffic going on either side of it. Its kinda like the strip of parkettes you have on University ave in downtown here that few people ever use because there's traffic on either side. I mean who wants to hang around a park that's surrounded by noise and pollution?

Also while I get that its nice to have a city that is pedestrian friendly, you can't make the entire city all for pedestrians without any regard for vehicles. I mean seriously downtown Toronto already has PLENTY of attractions and greenspace for pedestrians and I don't see how removing that stretch of the Gardiner east is going to make that huge a difference in the grand scheme of things. Also there's still a ton of space that has yet to be developed along the waterfront and elsewhere in the core, so why not finish those spaces up for people before worrying about the Gardiner?

And also if you want to REALLY want to have a chance at getting cars off the road, how about creating a 'bike highway' outside of downtown so that it will make it more convenient for bikers to get to and from the core as well as around town? Right now there are literally hundreds if not thousands of kilometres of little used sidewalks in the suburbs that really serve no purpose at the moment. No matter if the weather is good or bad, if you drive around Scarborough, Markham, North York, Etobicoke, Richmond Hill etc, there's practically zero people using those sidewalks on a daily basis. Instead of having all those sidewalks be nothing but a waste of space, why not repave one side of sidewalks along major roads with asphalt and turn that useless sidewalk into a useful bike lane?

You do this for a number of major streets running north to south and east to west across the city and all of a sudden you've created a useful bike network that people would actually use to get around town. I'd say this would be MUCH more effective at reducing the number of cars on the road and also be the most cost effective compared to adding more transit. And the best part is you wouldn't have to create new bike lanes as the sidewalks are already there and just need to be converted, so bikers wouldn't have to worry about cars hurting them as there is now separation and drivers wouldn't have to worry about hitting bikers on the road. Everyone is happy and people get more exercise too and Toronto finally has a useful bike network.

That's a little off topic, but yeah I really wish Toronto would do something like this instead of always thinking that adding more transit is the key to reducing traffic in this city.
I actually don't live in downtown either, but transit is still my preferred method of transportation. I live not far from the Mimico GO transit station along the Lakeshore West line, and getting to downtown is simply a breeze by taking the GO train. Yes, on some days, I would be able to drive faster than taking the GO train, but on most times of the day, GO train always wins. I've done this many times: door to door from exiting my apartment in Mimico to exiting Union Station via GO Transit takes a total of 27 minutes every single day, including driving and parking at the GO Transit station, for the 14 km journey. Works like clock work.

I know many people who live in South Etobicoke who do the same thing, by parking their car at GO Transit, then take public transit to downtown for work, and yes we all live in the "burbs" as well. It's not that transit is significantly faster than driving. It's the predictability and stress-free travel experience that really makes this a worthwhile choice for myself and many others who regularly take GO Transit. While waiting or sitting on the train, I can always get some work done, chat with my friends on FB, grab a quick breakfast or coffee at the station, or read a good book or newspaper (all GO Trains are now equipped with free Wifi, and works great if you want to read your morning emails or download an e-newspaper on your tablet).

Also, just because I take transit doesn't mean I'm giving up my car. On the contrary, I still drive to do my grocery, or the occasional trip to Square 1 or Sherway Gardens on the weekends. Those are mutually exclusive.
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Old 06-16-2015, 12:56 AM
 
Location: Toronto
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Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
And bury the Gardiner? Ha! Do you realize how long and how much $$$ Boston spent to bury a few miles of highway underneath its downtown? Boston's "Big Dig" was a 20+ year project, costing over $22 billion USD, and became the most expensive infrastructure project in U.S. history - all for 3 miles of buried highways (the cost ballooned by 10x the initial estimate). Oh and it still doesn't solve the congestion problem - try driving in the buried sections of I-93 between 4 - 8 pm everyday: bumper to bumper chaos when entering and exiting the tunnels just like the Gardiner, except that this one is underground. Well I guess it's all worth it if we stick to the old saying: "Out of sight, out of mind".
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