Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Canada > Toronto
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-24-2015, 04:52 PM
 
1,669 posts, read 4,232,169 times
Reputation: 977

Advertisements

There's no lack of vibrancy downtown, and there's plenty of retail. Even with the PATH system, the sidewalks above are very busy if not downright crowded at certain times of day. If the PATH wasn't there, the sidewalks above would be insanely jam packed.

Anyway, as to the original post, cities in Canada and The U.S. were developed differently than some of their Asian and European counterparts, with more separation between residential and commercial uses. London also has and was probably the inspiration for the Toronto model of neighbourhoods with high streets.

If you really look around you'll find there are no shortage of little corner stores and other commercial enterprises dotting many mainly residential areas in the old city.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-24-2015, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Toronto
6,750 posts, read 5,698,052 times
Reputation: 4619
Default It gets worse ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by brighthope View Post
It may be just a North American thing, but I have noticed that Toronto is very strictly zoned for commercial activities and there is not so much "fun" exploring the city because of it. A lot of neighborhoods have only one main commercial street and maybe a little bit more here and there.

Here are some examples
*Cabbage town = Parliament street
*Gay Village = Church street + a bit of Wellesley street
*Little Italy = College street
*Greek Town = Danforth Avenue
*Other neighborhoods along Bloor (Bloor West village, Annex etc.) = Bloor street

Even in downtown, many streets are residential only and if you walk off the main street a bit, you are in the middle of a lot of houses or apartment buildings without any commercial activities. They say Yonge and Eglinton is very urban and vibrant and I agree to a certain extent but, it is only Yonge street and mainly East side of Eglinton Avenue that have commercial activities.

I'm originally from Japan and it is totally opposite there - you find cafes, bars, restaurants, bakeries, or even bike shops or boutiques, almost everywhere even in a residential area. It is very convenient and makes the area vibrant. Of course I know having only residential area has its merits, however it seems too strict in Toronto.

In Toronto, I miss going into a narrow street off the main one and find a small clothing store, a hidden basement bar that can only take 4-5 people, a mom and pop restaurant in the middle of residential area that serve family style cooking food in the renovated first floor of their house etc.

The neighborhoods I can think of that is not "one or two commercial streets only" are only Kensington market and Yorkville. Any other neighborhoods are not necessarily "big" and I think it is part of the reason why some people "feel" Toronto is smaller than it actually is even though Toronto has many good neighborhoods.

I am wondering if it is only me who feel this way. Also I'm wondering if the city is going to relax on zoning anytime soon.

Any thoughts or comments?

Thanks!
As much as I love my city I do agree we need more stores/retail mixed in to residential areas. The area you have mentioned are not even that bad. Just head north east or west and it is brutal. The sad thing is though there a lot of retail spaces on many main streets there are a lot of empty spaces too. I am not sure if that says anything about spending habits in that area or just the how poorly the business that was there was being run. If you go along many major streets in Toronto you will notice that for rent signs are a common sight. For the longest while I really thought a lot of the stores in the east end of the city near Kingston Road were fronts. You would never see any customers/ traffic when they were open and there were usually closed. If people are not willing to go out and spend the money then local businesses cannot survive and we just have house after house with no good shopping or dining insight.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-24-2015, 06:45 PM
 
1,217 posts, read 2,593,280 times
Reputation: 1358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticman View Post
Anyway, as to the original post, cities in Canada and The U.S. were developed differently than some of their Asian and European counterparts, with more separation between residential and commercial uses. London also has and was probably the inspiration for the Toronto model of neighbourhoods with high streets.
I agree with this, I think the difference stems largely from a difference in lifestyle as well as living quarters. People work-go home-work-go home more in North America. Most people just don't go out every night in our society and the cost of living can be quite high too to do that. People also enjoy spending time/drinking/entertaining/etc. at home more and not as much as local bars/restaurants compared to other cultures, except for usually smaller urban circles. Cold weather for a chunk of the year also doesn't help keep people outdoors. But it seems people, generally, like to go out a lot on weekends and go to organized events. With the exception of perhaps NYC which has a more evident work hard/play harder culture, I think all North American cities exhibit this type of behaviour to varying degrees.

Last edited by johnathanc; 11-24-2015 at 07:19 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-24-2015, 09:58 PM
 
1,635 posts, read 2,704,189 times
Reputation: 574
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
lacking retail is not a style. Most North American cities lack retail, not unique to Toronto. It is a drawback. If such kind of retail landscape is purely organic, then I am fine with it. The problem is it is largely due to zoning, something purely artificial (the city decides this street should or should not have retail, which is stupid).

Malls and plazas with their grotesque parking in front of each store are a suburban thing. They look exactly like each other from Scarborough to Etobicoke. They are more like cancers.


toronto doesn't "lack" retail and i'm not sure what you mean by lacking retail being a "style".
does toronto lack the quantity of retail lined streets compared to other cities like new york, chicago and certain european cities? somewhat.

that's because to supplement the commercial streets in existence in several toronto neighbourhoods that seem to be "lacking", are what we call shopping malls, plazas & power centres. toronto has tons and tons of them within its city limits alone and i wouldn't be surprised if it has more malls/plazaspower centres within city limits than just about all comparable cities in terms of population/size.

there are a good 5 or so very large shopping malls withing city limits (fairview, scarborough town, sherway, etc), several power centres (golden mile, stockyards, shops at don mills, kennedy commons, etc.) , several mid-sized malls (gerard sq, centerpoint, dufferin, sheppard centre, manulife centre, east york town centre, etc) and tons and tons of plazas (peanut plaza, agincourt mall, etc). thats why certain streets are not lined up with retail due to the way the city was developed over the time. and then of course as mentioned earlier, the underground path system has to be taken into consideration for dt toronto.

there are several areas of the city where you have lots of apartment buildings and/or condos which are supplemented by surrounding plazas and/or malls for commercial purposes, and because of this you see "less" retail lined streets in various toronto hoods. this is the "style" that toronto has implemented overtime. and this "style" doesn't lack retail.

take any comparable sized city to toronto, and compare it to the amount of large and mid-sized malls and large plazas/power centre within city limits. i wouldn't be surprised if toronto had more malls/power centres/midsized malls/large plazas than other similar/comparable cities within city limits.

remember... toronto used to be a few different municipalities before the amalgamation back in 1998 and the city is also a cold weather city. add in the transit oriented development pattern that toronto has done a very excellent job at doing (every major toronto mall is connected to the subway system except sherway which is at least connected to two major highways), and that kinda gives you some perspective as to why the city is built the way it is when it comes to commercial and residential planning from the past. all of this play apart as to why there ain't much retail lined streets as what you find in chicago, new york or certain european cities. toronto does have its fair share, but what makes up for it all what i mentioned above.

this is what i mean by the "style" toronto has developed over the years and what differentiates it from several other cities.

i dont really have a preference between indoor or outdoor shopping (i prefer online), but there are pros and cons to each. you say malls look the same all over, and some people might say the same thing about retail lined streets from hood to hood.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-24-2015, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,106 posts, read 15,795,941 times
Reputation: 5196
Good Post Mr Jun...


I'm not a big fan of the post 60's development in Toronto - Big Regional malls/Power centre's etc outside Old T.O.. A lot of missed opportunities. The good thing is that I think we are on the right track now.. Biggest reason, unlike cities like Chicago and Houston etc - Toronto is growing within established population areas since the Places to Grow act.. Growth is being forced into a more compact and urban area so I think this is the type of growth and development that someone like Botti prefers and I largely agree with him even though you are right there is certainly no lack of retail - it just depends on the type one is referring to.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2015, 06:59 AM
 
1,635 posts, read 2,704,189 times
Reputation: 574
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Good Post Mr Jun...


I'm not a big fan of the post 60's development in Toronto - Big Regional malls/Power centre's etc outside Old T.O.. A lot of missed opportunities. The good thing is that I think we are on the right track now.. Biggest reason, unlike cities like Chicago and Houston etc - Toronto is growing within established population areas since the Places to Grow act.. Growth is being forced into a more compact and urban area so I think this is the type of growth and development that someone like Botti prefers and I largely agree with him even though you are right there is certainly no lack of retail - it just depends on the type one is referring to.
Thanks.

Its different strokes for different folks. Some prefer to retail streets, some prefer other types of commerical infrastructure and development that mix in with retail streets.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2015, 07:44 AM
 
10,839 posts, read 14,677,694 times
Reputation: 7872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticman View Post
There's no lack of vibrancy downtown, and there's plenty of retail. Even with the PATH system, the sidewalks above are very busy if not downright crowded at certain times of day. If the PATH wasn't there, the sidewalks above would be insanely jam packed.

Anyway, as to the original post, cities in Canada and The U.S. were developed differently than some of their Asian and European counterparts, with more separation between residential and commercial uses. London also has and was probably the inspiration for the Toronto model of neighbourhoods with high streets.

If you really look around you'll find there are no shortage of little corner stores and other commercial enterprises dotting many mainly residential areas in the old city.
that's THE problem. It is not just a different way of doing things, but rather poor planning and backward thinking. Separating residential and commercial uses means less efficient use of land, and a lot more unnecessary driving. This is not a sustainable lifestyle. How many Torontonians can watch a movie or buy grocery without driving? Most urban Asians and Europeans can.


"If the PATH wasn't there, the side walks would be jam packed" - great, let it jam packed. Cities are supposed to be jam packed. But I doubt it will because the PATH only exists in the financial district and if they come above ground, they could spread to those empty streets I mentioned above downtown. And the reason it might be jam packed is because side walks are not wide enough (look at Yonge, it is pathetic) and cars take too many lanes.


Downtown Toronto still doesn't have a single sizable pedestrian only street, because people think they are entitled to drive on Yonge and Queen west as a human right.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2015, 07:48 AM
 
10,839 posts, read 14,677,694 times
Reputation: 7872
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjun18 View Post
Thanks.

Its different strokes for different folks. Some prefer to retail streets, some prefer other types of commerical infrastructure and development that mix in with retail streets.
and some prefer driving to buy every single item they need, and having a parking spot ready every time for their damn car.


Urban planning is not about what people prefer - people always make selfish choices. It is about efficiency, economics and best use of land and protection of environment.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2015, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Centre Wellington, ON
5,813 posts, read 6,016,755 times
Reputation: 3140
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Good Post Mr Jun...


I'm not a big fan of the post 60's development in Toronto - Big Regional malls/Power centre's etc outside Old T.O.. A lot of missed opportunities. The good thing is that I think we are on the right track now.. Biggest reason, unlike cities like Chicago and Houston etc - Toronto is growing within established population areas since the Places to Grow act.. Growth is being forced into a more compact and urban area so I think this is the type of growth and development that someone like Botti prefers and I largely agree with him even though you are right there is certainly no lack of retail - it just depends on the type one is referring to.
Although many American cities are shifting towards more urban growth too. In some cases this was already evident in the last US census (2000-2010) where for example Chicago experienced almost as much downtown population growth as Toronto during the same period. Toronto's downtown growth has since picked up, and I'm not sure how fast downtown Chicago is growing now, but still that's pretty impressive considering Chicago's metro area only grew by 360,000 vs 900,000 for Toronto.

Houston is building a lot of infill now too, especially in the West Loop and Uptown areas, although there's some development in Downtown, Midtown and the near East Loop too. It's hard to say how much because a lot of it is small townhouse projects that are difficult to keep track of. My estimate would be 70,000 to 150,000 in infill growth for Houston this decade. DC, NYC, Boston, Philadelphia, Seattle, Portland, the Bay Area, Atlanta, LA and Miami are all seeing a fair bit of infill, as are Denver, Austin, Minneapolis and even cities like Nashville, St Louis, Kansas City or Richmond, VA are seeing a decent amount of infill. Some of these cities experienced relatively little infill 2000-2010 and have since seen a significant uptick.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2015, 08:20 AM
 
10,839 posts, read 14,677,694 times
Reputation: 7872
Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
Although many American cities are shifting towards more urban growth too. In some cases this was already evident in the last US census (2000-2010) where for example Chicago experienced almost as much downtown population growth as Toronto during the same period. Toronto's downtown growth has since picked up, and I'm not sure how fast downtown Chicago is growing now, but still that's pretty impressive considering Chicago's metro area only grew by 360,000 vs 900,000 for Toronto.

Houston is building a lot of infill now too, especially in the West Loop and Uptown areas, although there's some development in Downtown, Midtown and the near East Loop too. It's hard to say how much because a lot of it is small townhouse projects that are difficult to keep track of. My estimate would be 70,000 to 150,000 in infill growth for Houston this decade. DC, NYC, Boston, Philadelphia, Seattle, Portland, the Bay Area, Atlanta, LA and Miami are all seeing a fair bit of infill, as are Denver, Austin, Minneapolis and even cities like Nashville, St Louis, Kansas City or Richmond, VA are seeing a decent amount of infill. Some of these cities experienced relatively little infill 2000-2010 and have since seen a significant uptick.
I heard stories about urban renewal in American cities too.


I guess young people born in the 80s and 90s are not satisfied with the boring suburban car dependent mall shopping life their parents considered standard (and indispensable), and gravitate toward more sensible choices. Even downtown Los Angeles is experiencing rapid changes with new condos sprouting out charging high prices.


It will take along time but at least in the right direction.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Canada > Toronto
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:54 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top