Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It may be just a North American thing, but I have noticed that Toronto is very strictly zoned for commercial activities and there is not so much "fun" exploring the city because of it. A lot of neighborhoods have only one main commercial street and maybe a little bit more here and there.
Here are some examples
*Cabbage town = Parliament street
*Gay Village = Church street + a bit of Wellesley street
*Little Italy = College street
*Greek Town = Danforth Avenue
*Other neighborhoods along Bloor (Bloor West village, Annex etc.) = Bloor street
Even in downtown, many streets are residential only and if you walk off the main street a bit, you are in the middle of a lot of houses or apartment buildings without any commercial activities. They say Yonge and Eglinton is very urban and vibrant and I agree to a certain extent but, it is only Yonge street and mainly East side of Eglinton Avenue that have commercial activities.
I'm originally from Japan and it is totally opposite there - you find cafes, bars, restaurants, bakeries, or even bike shops or boutiques, almost everywhere even in a residential area. It is very convenient and makes the area vibrant. Of course I know having only residential area has its merits, however it seems too strict in Toronto.
In Toronto, I miss going into a narrow street off the main one and find a small clothing store, a hidden basement bar that can only take 4-5 people, a mom and pop restaurant in the middle of residential area that serve family style cooking food in the renovated first floor of their house etc.
The neighborhoods I can think of that is not "one or two commercial streets only" are only Kensington market and Yorkville. Any other neighborhoods are not necessarily "big" and I think it is part of the reason why some people "feel" Toronto is smaller than it actually is even though Toronto has many good neighborhoods.
I am wondering if it is only me who feel this way. Also I'm wondering if the city is going to relax on zoning anytime soon.
I think its a more Canamerican thing - try going to many U.S cities and the level of suburbia would make Toronto look insanely urban, even our suburbs!.. Anytime I travel to Latin America, Europe or Asia I always see commercial and residential areas intermixed like crazy...
Christ, when I read it, it felt like I wrote it myself! I had thought about or written about every single point here. I guess Asians from large cities share similar life experiences and are really not used to all those quiet residential streets with absolutely nothing going on, even in downtown.
For minute I almost thought someone is making fun of me by copying a previous post of mine.
Good thing is that downtown is growing strong with more people moving in and new retail appearing every day. This is why I seldom go north of Bloor (people make fun of me for that here too) because I simply can't stand all those suburb like neighbourhoods (which Canadians don't even consider suburban). A place like Eglinton and Bayview shocks me.
I'm glad to know it's not only me! I don't frequent this forum much but I always wanted to ask about this. I often tell my Canadian friends how Toronto is not THAT vibrant compared to Asian or European cities and they usually don't get it (unless of course, they have seen Asian/European cities)!
Botticelli, I might have actually read your posts before - I noticed someone was saying similar things here in this forum (downtown is too residential or something like that) but I did not remember which member that was. Probably it was you (?). By no means I "copied" your posts though!
To me, Toronto seems like a collection of many nice small villages (well, literally they are called gay "village" etc.) but (or maybe because of it) it does not strikes me as a big city.
(Also like a village, it goes to sleep around 8...I live near St.Clair station and most cafes here closes at 7 or8!)
I have lived in Toronto since 2007(not throughout though) and I have been seeing a big difference in terms of vibrancy. However, still, I think it is only limited to the "main" streets and unless Toronto relaxes on zoning I doubt it will get as exciting as other European or Asian cities...
Of course those Asian and European cities are at least 2 times as dense as Toronto, maybe even 5 times for the densest Asian cities.
There's major streets with little to no retail like Dufferin, Bathurst, most of Harbord, substantial parts of Dupont, Davenport, Ossington, Dundas E, Jones, Coxwell, Cosburn, Woodbine...
Still there are a few other examples of shops off the main roads but I agree it's rare. https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.65421...7i13312!8i6656
There's also Baldwin St by McCaul.
I think the heart of downtown is the only place that's comparable to Euro/Asian cities, i.e. Bay-Yonge corridor and King-Queen-Front-Queens Quay area.
Some of the streets mentioned though actually used to be much more residential (70-100 years ago) during the initial build-outs of those areas. For example Church or Parliament, lots of the businesses are in old houses rather than purpose-built commercial buildings. I think Dundas W was much more residential too.
places like Kensington Market or St Lawrence Market are more like typical neighbourhoods in Asia. This is why at first I was puzzled by why North Americans go to Asia and Europe with a specific plan to visit some of the local markets. They think seeing farmers selling fresh fruits (instead of in a chain grocery store) is some sort of thrilling experience.
I agree than only the Yonge and Queen/King corridors are comparable to Europe/Asia kind of vibrancy, this is why I choose to live south of Queen, because I am used to be surrounded by all sorts of retail, where 10 minute walk practically meets all the daily needs. North of Bloor st, you pretty rely on Yonge for any urban experience (not to say other street has zero retail, just not the desired scale). Visit Dupont or Castle Frank station and the vicinities, it is like you are nowhere near a big city. All the lowrise homes, trees and no retail in sight.
I used to live at Yonge/Eglinton, many people would call it midtown, considering it a busy place, but other than the retail on Yonge itself and a little bit on Eglinton immediately near Yonge, it is almost all dead quiet residential. Soudan st has zero retail, neither do most other streets 3 minutes away from Yonge. At the danforth, you only need to walk 1 minute away from Danforth itself to be surrounded by nothing but single family homes. Same applies to Bloor West of Bathurst I suppose. In downtown itself, the core of the city, many streets are devoid of any retail life too. University is an example. Bay st is quite sterile too, not to mention the smaller west-east streets. Baldwin and Elm are exceptions and what we should aim for. Yonge and Dundas is the heart of the city, but if you go a bit east on Victoria st, there is little retail. Church (except at the village), Mutual, Jarvis, Sherbourne, very little. Gould st, Shuter, Edward, Gerrard, Elizabeth, Wood, Richmond east, all incredibly boring. Not to mention for example, McCaul, Beverly, Huron. How is that acceptable?
Let's not mention smaller cities like Vancouver, which is too quiet even for my mother. And people here think it is "cosmopolitan" when it is slightly larger than a town. Montreal seems to be much better based on my limited experiences as a visitor.
Canadians are probably used to this kind of layout and many think Toronto very vibrant, but that's really the very low North American standard. A city with half or one third of Toronto's population will look twice as busy in Asia and Europe.
As I said the current condo boom hopefully will revitalize some of the dead streets, as the new residents will create new demand for more retail (as well as better public space, which is quite bad for a city like Toronto), because the lack of residents explains largely the lack of retail. I laugh at the idea that downtown is crowded. I would love to have three times the current population, which will create the level of urbanity I desire. Those who hate density can enjoy their tree lined residential streets in the suburbs (90% of the city), no offense. I don't consider that lifestyle desirable whatsoever. If I wanted that, I would live in Barrie or Burlington.
I might have said all the above before (and sorry for the repetition) however, the OP's observation does resonate strongly with me.
i think what kinda makes up the difference for toronto having less "retail" streets are the amount of large and mid-sized malls/plazas in various parts of the city.
i dont find any issue with the residential thing though. it's good that toronto is different and is not copying/imitating other cities, and has its own "style" of development.
I think the underground tunnels make a difference too. Much of the "downtown" weekday retail and activity is below-ground which bleeds pedestrians, and retail, from the surface.
i think what kinda makes up the difference for toronto having less "retail" streets are the amount of large and mid-sized malls/plazas in various parts of the city.
i dont find any issue with the residential thing though. it's good that toronto is different and is not copying/imitating other cities, and has its own "style" of development.
lacking retail is not a style. Most North American cities lack retail, not unique to Toronto. It is a drawback. If such kind of retail landscape is purely organic, then I am fine with it. The problem is it is largely due to zoning, something purely artificial (the city decides this street should or should not have retail, which is stupid).
Malls and plazas with their grotesque parking in front of each store are a suburban thing. They look exactly like each other from Scarborough to Etobicoke. They are more like cancers.
I think the underground tunnels make a difference too. Much of the "downtown" weekday retail and activity is below-ground which bleeds pedestrians, and retail, from the surface.
that's true, but the Path is relatively small. Doesn't really explain why there is a lack of retail outside the financial district. Plus they are dead zones on the weekends and at night.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
