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This conversation makes me wonder this. Toronto's Black population is mainly of those who are of West Indian and African background. It would be interesting to hear from American Blacks who live in Canada.
I would recommend, that Canada is the complete discrimination-free country for anybody to live. I am not telling this because I am a Canadian but one can see the prior history of this country which has regularly allowed people from different regions.
This conversation makes me wonder this. Toronto's Black population is mainly of those who are of West Indian and African background. It would be interesting to hear from American Blacks who live in Canada.
All five of them lol. I personally don't meet a lot of Americans of any appearance living in Canada so if you can find that four leaf clover of a person I agree it would be interesting to hear their feedback.
All five of them lol. I personally don't meet a lot of Americans of any appearance living in Canada so if you can find that four leaf clover of a person I agree it would be interesting to hear their feedback.
ain't that the truth.
Honestly the closest you may get on this board is someone like me. A black West Indian who has lived in both Canada and the US. But that will still not give the exact same perspective as an African American living in Toronto.
All five of them lol. I personally don't meet a lot of Americans of any appearance living in Canada so if you can find that four leaf clover of a person I agree it would be interesting to hear their feedback.
I ask because there is a history of American Blacks moving to Canada. I figure some might be there now. I'm thinking what is there comparison between the USA and Canada.
Honestly the closest you may get on this board is someone like me. A black West Indian who has lived in both Canada and the US. But that will still not give the exact same perspective as an African American living in Toronto.
Maybe not. However, it might give at least some insight on being in the USA vs being in Canada as a Black person. But then, the dynamic there might different. I suspect West Indians might be viewed different in the USA from American Blacks.
Again I don't understand how you can't see how FLAWED your logic is. You don't need a majority of a group of people to be violent and criminal for that group to have serious crime and violence issues. That simply DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.
I didn't say there weren't issues did I? What I was saying was the majority of blacks in Toronto are law abiding and hard working people. That should always be at the top of your mind when you are commenting on this topic. To not do so is really dismissing the contributions of the majority of a group in favour of the minority. For the minority who are causing problems, yes its an issue and I don't disagree with that. I really don't see any flaws in my logic there.
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Originally Posted by Max Sterling
Look at Chicago this year where there have been 700+ murders and still counting and the overwhelming majority of them involve blacks both as victims and as perpetrators. The black population in Chicago is about 860,000 and lets assume that at most maybe 2000-3000 were involved in these murders both as the killers and as victims. By your logic because 'only' 3000 out of the 860,000 black people there were involved in a murder incident this year, then blacks in Chicago don't have a murder problem because only a 'tiny' portion of black people were involved.
In reality anyone with half a brain would recognize that a city that's averaging 12 SHOOTINGS AND 2 MURDERS EVERY SINGLE DAY and where the vast majority of these incidents involves black people is a MASSIVE PROBLEM that is cause for huge concern and should be dealt with ASAP. But hey, only the tiniest number of black people are involved so according to your reasoning Chicago is perfectly fine and black people there don't have a huge problem on their hands I guess. Do you not see how UTTERLY IDIOTIC AND INSANE your thinking is??
Why are you so insaulting to people who have a different opinion than you? You seem angry! Also, why are you bringing up Chicago? That has nothing to do with Toronto here. Its on a whole other level when it comes to violent crime. I don't think there is a parallel between the black situation in Chicago and that of Toronto.
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Originally Posted by Max Sterling
WE DON'T NEED 50% or more of the black population of Toronto to be committing crime, violence and murder to realize that they have serious problems here. When you see the stats that say Toronto has had 400+ gun incidents this year and hundreds of people shot and stabbed and dozens of people murder and most of this is happening among black people, I don't know in what world you live in that you wouldn't say that's a massive problem. It just boggles my mind how warped people's thinking can be.
When some groups of people are allowed to say practically anything they want with little to no reprecussion while other groups would be totally destroyed for doing the same, then YES those people are 100% taking advantage of white guilt and freedom of speech that is afforded to them, but not other people.
Hey 5 gun incidents is too many as far as i'm concerned. That said, Toronto is still a remarkably safe city for its size. I'm not making excuses for anyone who commits a crime but I think we need to put things into perspective. Do I think we as a society should sweep it under the rug or not try and do something about it- of course not but i'll stick to what I said, the vast majority of blacks in Toronto are law abiding and productive members of society. I don't know why that is hard for you to understand and why you don't put at least as much of a focus on that as you do that blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime given their population.
As for the white guilt thing I'm just not buying it.
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Originally Posted by Max Sterling
Again I'll just point out Black Lives Matter in Toronto as a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Just this year BLMTO has had:
- one of their organizers tweet out about hating white people and men and wanting to kill them
- stop the gay pride parade and force its organizers to sign a stupid list of demands they had
- refused to sell a tshirt to a white woman because she wasn't 'black identified'
All these things are extremely offensive and racist and yet NONE of our public leaders had the balls to call BLMTO out on these things and tell them that they were WRONG. And even private citizens who pointed this out were chastised for it as if they were the problem and not BLMTO.
You have to be very careful to assume that any group speaks for the majority of its members. I can say that about my community. I'm gay and well I consider myself an individual first who happens to be gay. I'm connected to some gay organizations but no organization speaks for all of us. So I caution you again for taking small segments and expanding those into something bigger than what they may be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Sterling
On the otherhand though, how much do you want to bet that if a white person or a white group said and did the exact same things as above that there wouldn't be massive outrage and backlash against these people and that they would've been accused of being racists and probably faced job loss and huge personal damage to their reputations?
THAT'S how messed up 'white guilt' and political correctness has gotten these days where if you're part of a certain group (black, Muslim) you're free to say almost anything you want and most people won't bat an eyelash. BUT if you're part of another group (cauasian), then you better be prepared for the crapstorm you'll face for saying the same things. In what world is that fair and is considered free speech for all??
Here's the problem. When crime and violence occurs among different people of various backgrounds and it happens infrequently then sure attribute those crimes and behaviors to those individuals, BUT if crime and violence is CONSTANTLY AND MOSTLY happening among ONE group of people for decades on end, then NO YOU CANNOT look at the issue and NOT attribute those problems to that group of people specifically.
That doesn't mean we now say ALL blacks are violent and criminal, but it does mean that we should stop trying to be PC and simply call a spade a spade and say that black males are the major cause of crime in the GTA. The one time a Toronto police chief said that in public he was roasted and called racist etc when what he was saying was 100% true back then and its still 100% true now. The fact that people are either too stupid, too naive or too afraid to say it out loud and deal with the problem head on is the main reason why black crime in Toronto and everywhere else rarely gets better no matter what people try.
I don't advocate racism in any form, even against white people. I'm fine with being honest and intelligent about things. If its rooted in facts and data and it is something that is designed to solve problems great. I'm just very cautious in allowing hyperbole and hysteria to sway my ability to think independently and to push me towards the injustice of sweeping generalizations and stereotypes to the point that it clouds my judgment.
So when you say deal with the problem(s) well what are your solutions? I see a lot of venting here and a lot of finger pointing but nothing really substantive in the way of ideas to solve problems and make the situation better. Making a case for so called white guilt or for society being too politically correct (whatever the heck that is) are not really solutions to the problems.
I didn't say there weren't issues did I? What I was saying was the majority of blacks in Toronto are law abiding and hard working people. That should always be at the top of your mind when you are commenting on this topic. To not do so is really dismissing the contributions of the majority of a group in favour of the minority. For the minority who are causing problems, yes its an issue and I don't disagree with that. I really don't see any flaws in my logic there.
Quote:
Why are you so insaulting to people who have a different opinion than you? You seem angry! Also, why are you bringing up Chicago? That has nothing to do with Toronto here. Its on a whole other level when it comes to violent crime. I don't think there is a parallel between the black situation in Chicago and that of Toronto.
I ALWAYS acknowledge that the majority of black people are mostly law abiding and aren't constantly committing crime and violence. I have no problem with these people. BUT what you CONSTANTLY seem to overlook is the fact that that very same statement HAS NO CONTEXT AND COMPLETELY minimizes the serious and neverending crime, violence and murder problems that black people face year after year, decade after decade nearly everywhere they live in numbers. To simply say 'the majority of black people aren't violent or criminal' means NOTHING and in fact it covers up the severe problem that black people are afflicted with. It would be the equivalent of a doctor telling you that you have a small tumor in your leg vs. saying that you have a cancerous tumor in your leg. The former definitely sounds like a much smaller problem vs the latter which sounds much more dangerous and urgent.
The same happens with describing black crime and violence. 'The majority of black people aren't violent and criminal' absolutely makes the problem seem minimal and relatively insignificant compared to saying 'The crime and violence rates among black people is MUCH higher than among non-black people'. That statement even though it sounds more negative, actually accurately describes the issue that black people and the non-black people who live around them have to deal with.
And THAT'S the reason why I bring up Chicago and their crime and murder problems because it highlights how illogical and absurd your statement is of saying 'the majority of blacks aren't violent or criminal' everytime someone brings up how much crime and violence blacks commit. I mean seriously how difficult is it for you to understand that the criminal minority is still a significant number of people who cause issues among the majority non-criminal and non-violent every single day? 700+ murders in 2016 in Chicago with the majority involving blacks is a MASSIVE PROBLEM, but by your logic that's not really an issue because that's still a very tiny percentage of Chicago's 860,000 black population that's involved in murder which is an INSANE argument to make. Those same criminals and thugs in the relatively small numbers that they are, are terrorizing and making entire areas of Chicago dangerous for everyone who has to live with or around them. That is a huge problem and makes 'the majority of blacks aren't violent or criminal' meaningless.
Quote:
Hey 5 gun incidents is too many as far as i'm concerned. That said, Toronto is still a remarkably safe city for its size. I'm not making excuses for anyone who commits a crime but I think we need to put things into perspective. Do I think we as a society should sweep it under the rug or not try and do something about it- of course not but i'll stick to what I said, the vast majority of blacks in Toronto are law abiding and productive members of society. I don't know why that is hard for you to understand and why you don't put at least as much of a focus on that as you do that blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime given their population.
We place focus on black crime because that's the problem that is causing black people as well as non-black people in the GTA the most headaches and pain and damage. Its the same reason people highlight government overspending and wastage of tax payer dollars vs government spending our money efficiently and properly because that's a problem that needs to be addressed and eliminated the same way high black crime and violence needs to be addressed and eliminated.
Quote:
You have to be very careful to assume that any group speaks for the majority of its members. I can say that about my community. I'm gay and well I consider myself an individual first who happens to be gay. I'm connected to some gay organizations but no organization speaks for all of us. So I caution you again for taking small segments and expanding those into something bigger than what they may be.
A group like BLM may not speak for all or even most black people, but it certainly does highlight the fact that certain groups and certain people are allowed much more freedom in what they're able to get away with saying than other groups and people are allowed. It shouldn't be like this, but that is what's happening more and more often these days when most black people have near free reign to say whatever they like no matter how offensive and inflammatory and face little to no reprecussions vs what non-blacks can say publicly without being completely crushed by the public and face severe consequences for their 'offensive and intolerant and racist opinions'.
Quote:
I don't advocate racism in any form, even against white people. I'm fine with being honest and intelligent about things. If its rooted in facts and data and it is something that is designed to solve problems great. I'm just very cautious in allowing hyperbole and hysteria to sway my ability to think independently and to push me towards the injustice of sweeping generalizations and stereotypes to the point that it clouds my judgment.
When people say that black people commit alot of crime, violence and murder THAT IS ROOTED IN FACTS AND STATISTICS and decades of it. BUT STILL black people and their supporters REFUSE to acknowledge those facts or else they call the data flawed or biased or racist and make every excuse they can think of to justify why many black people behave the way they do.
Quote:
So when you say deal with the problem(s) well what are your solutions? I see a lot of venting here and a lot of finger pointing but nothing really substantive in the way of ideas to solve problems and make the situation better. Making a case for so called white guilt or for society being too politically correct (whatever the heck that is) are not really solutions to the problems.
I've stated what I think are real solutions to the black crime problem here many times previously, but to put it briefly:
1. Have black people actually ADMIT to this problem AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT rather than making excuses for the behavior of their people or blaming it on everything and everyone but themselves.
2. Have black people actually co-operate with police CONSISTENTLY so that anytime a crime occurs if someone witnesses it have them contact and tell police immediately so that they can deal with it quickly and more effectively.
3. Have black people actually NOT HARBOUR these criminals and instead have the law abiding people turn in these thugs ASAP. Criminals cannot survive in a community that is solidly against them and is 100% committed to ratting them out and getting rid of them from their neighborhoods. Why do you think almost all non-black neighborhoods in the GTA are mostly safe and peaceful? Because the people living there have no issues with reporting criminals and turning them in ASAP to keep their neighborhoods safe compared to black people.
4. Have black parents raise their kids properly with morals and human decency and keep them away from the thugs in their communities. Right now black parents are failing their kids by doing a poor job of raising them. As long as that doesn't change then no amount of outside help will ever be enough.
I ALWAYS acknowledge that the majority of black people are mostly law abiding and aren't constantly committing crime and violence. I have no problem with these people. BUT what you CONSTANTLY seem to overlook is the fact that that very same statement HAS NO CONTEXT AND COMPLETELY minimizes the serious and neverending crime, violence and murder problems that black people face year after year, decade after decade nearly everywhere they live in numbers. To simply say 'the majority of black people aren't violent or criminal' means NOTHING and in fact it covers up the severe problem that black people are afflicted with. It would be the equivalent of a doctor telling you that you have a small tumor in your leg vs. saying that you have a cancerous tumor in your leg. The former definitely sounds like a much smaller problem vs the latter which sounds much more dangerous and urgent.
The same happens with describing black crime and violence. 'The majority of black people aren't violent and criminal' absolutely makes the problem seem minimal and relatively insignificant compared to saying 'The crime and violence rates among black people is MUCH higher than among non-black people'. That statement even though it sounds more negative, actually accurately describes the issue that black people and the non-black people who live around them have to deal with.
And THAT'S the reason why I bring up Chicago and their crime and murder problems because it highlights how illogical and absurd your statement is of saying 'the majority of blacks aren't violent or criminal' everytime someone brings up how much crime and violence blacks commit. I mean seriously how difficult is it for you to understand that the criminal minority is still a significant number of people who cause issues among the majority non-criminal and non-violent every single day? 700+ murders in 2016 in Chicago with the majority involving blacks is a MASSIVE PROBLEM, but by your logic that's not really an issue because that's still a very tiny percentage of Chicago's 860,000 black population that's involved in murder which is an INSANE argument to make. Those same criminals and thugs in the relatively small numbers that they are, are terrorizing and making entire areas of Chicago dangerous for everyone who has to live with or around them. That is a huge problem and makes 'the majority of blacks aren't violent or criminal' meaningless.
We place focus on black crime because that's the problem that is causing black people as well as non-black people in the GTA the most headaches and pain and damage. Its the same reason people highlight government overspending and wastage of tax payer dollars vs government spending our money efficiently and properly because that's a problem that needs to be addressed and eliminated the same way high black crime and violence needs to be addressed and eliminated.
A group like BLM may not speak for all or even most black people, but it certainly does highlight the fact that certain groups and certain people are allowed much more freedom in what they're able to get away with saying than other groups and people are allowed. It shouldn't be like this, but that is what's happening more and more often these days when most black people have near free reign to say whatever they like no matter how offensive and inflammatory and face little to no reprecussions vs what non-blacks can say publicly without being completely crushed by the public and face severe consequences for their 'offensive and intolerant and racist opinions'.
When people say that black people commit alot of crime, violence and murder THAT IS ROOTED IN FACTS AND STATISTICS and decades of it. BUT STILL black people and their supporters REFUSE to acknowledge those facts or else they call the data flawed or biased or racist and make every excuse they can think of to justify why many black people behave the way they do.
I've stated what I think are real solutions to the black crime problem here many times previously, but to put it briefly:
1. Have black people actually ADMIT to this problem AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT rather than making excuses for the behavior of their people or blaming it on everything and everyone but themselves.
2. Have black people actually co-operate with police CONSISTENTLY so that anytime a crime occurs if someone witnesses it have them contact and tell police immediately so that they can deal with it quickly and more effectively.
3. Have black people actually NOT HARBOUR these criminals and instead have the law abiding people turn in these thugs ASAP. Criminals cannot survive in a community that is solidly against them and is 100% committed to ratting them out and getting rid of them from their neighborhoods. Why do you think almost all non-black neighborhoods in the GTA are mostly safe and peaceful? Because the people living there have no issues with reporting criminals and turning them in ASAP to keep their neighborhoods safe compared to black people.
4. Have black parents raise their kids properly with morals and human decency and keep them away from the thugs in their communities. Right now black parents are failing their kids by doing a poor job of raising them. As long as that doesn't change then no amount of outside help will ever be enough.
You must be joking right?
Reading what you continue to write it just seems like you continually are looking for any and every way to justify that "Black" people are worse then everyone else. The more I read what you write I really doubt you actually personally know any people that are black.
You seem to want to put this generic negative label on a group of people ... but there is no logic behind this, except apparently to you. You can manipulate stats... reports or whatever you want to try and prove a point, but the reality is you just don't appear to have any first hand experiences with "black" people or you would probably get that what you are saying is makes no sense.
There is so much variation in traits of people that I can not even get my head around how basic and ignorant these assumptions are.
I had and have freinds, family members, neighbours, class mates, co-workers etc that are "black". In the last 30 something years of life I have met 1000s and 1000s of black people .... each person, their behaviour, interests, values, upbringing, beliefs are different. I don't even know why anyone should have to explain that because it should be obvious. Why anyone can be delusional enough to think you can label each person that same is insane. Get out of your stats/ reports and get in to the world and meet people.
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......
ain't that the truth. 
