How's it like being Black in Toronto, Canada? (schools, to live in)

[fusion2]

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

I ALWAYS acknowledge that the majority of black people are mostly law abiding and aren't constantly committing crime and violence. I have no problem with these people. BUT what you CONSTANTLY seem to overlook is the fact that that very same statement HAS NO CONTEXT AND COMPLETELY minimizes the serious and neverending crime, violence and murder problems that black people face year after year, decade after decade nearly everywhere they live in numbers. To simply say 'the majority of black people aren't violent or criminal' means NOTHING and in fact it covers up the severe problem that black people are afflicted with. It would be the equivalent of a doctor telling you that you have a small tumor in your leg vs. saying that you have a cancerous tumor in your leg. The former definitely sounds like a much smaller problem vs the latter which sounds much more dangerous and urgent.

I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say about there being no context. I'm talking about perspective and numbers. If the majority of people in the black community are not committing crimes than you can't refer to the minority as 'black people' - that minority is not representative of the majority. Your analogy is particularly meaningless regarding a tumor. If that was the case than over time, particularly in the case of Toronto, the majority of blacks would be committing crimes as the tumor metastasizes - this is not the case because as has been mentioned ad-nauseum and to which you agree, the majority of blacks do not commit or engage in criminal activities.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

The same happens with describing black crime and violence. 'The majority of black people aren't violent and criminal' absolutely makes the problem seem minimal and relatively insignificant compared to saying 'The crime and violence rates among black people is MUCH higher than among non-black people'. That statement even though it sounds more negative, actually accurately describes the issue that black people and the non-black people who live around them have to deal with.

I've already said the fact that a disproportionate amount of criminal activity is committed by black people is an issue. It is a problem absolutely and it is one with no simple solution. It certainly is worthy of exploration with the goal of reducing these numbers. To that I completely agree with. The solutions would be multi-pronged and would involve all members of society.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

And THAT'S the reason why I bring up Chicago and their crime and murder problems because it highlights how illogical and absurd your statement is of saying 'the majority of blacks aren't violent or criminal' everytime someone brings up how much crime and violence blacks commit. I mean seriously how difficult is it for you to understand that the criminal minority is still a significant number of people who cause issues among the majority non-criminal and non-violent every single day? 700+ murders in 2016 in Chicago with the majority involving blacks is a MASSIVE PROBLEM, but by your logic that's not really an issue because that's still a very tiny percentage of Chicago's 860,000 black population that's involved in murder which is an INSANE argument to make. Those same criminals and thugs in the relatively small numbers that they are, are terrorizing and making entire areas of Chicago dangerous for everyone who has to live with or around them. That is a huge problem and makes 'the majority of blacks aren't violent or criminal' meaningless.

I definitely think the issue of black crime in Chicago and the U.S in general is worthy of discussion, as I do regarding Toronto. I just don't think this thread is the appropriate venue. We should keep the discussion on the black experience in Toronto and really the thread is about How it is like to be Black in Toronto, not an examination of black criminal activity through the eyes of Max Sterling. Essentially, we as white guys aren't really qualified at all to be commenting on what it is like to be black in Toronto. I've just joined the discussion because I was responding to your posts which I think pretty narrowly focused.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

We place focus on black crime because that's the problem that is causing black people as well as non-black people in the GTA the most headaches and pain and damage. Its the same reason people highlight government overspending and wastage of tax payer dollars vs government spending our money efficiently and properly because that's a problem that needs to be addressed and eliminated the same way high black crime and violence needs to be addressed and eliminated.

Ok well sure, all crime and violence is damaging to society. Lets focus on reducing that. Its a complicated and as I stated multi-pronged endeavour but is certainly worthy of our efforts and no, I don't think its just members of the black community who would need to be involved.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

A group like BLM may not speak for all or even most black people, but it certainly does highlight the fact that certain groups and certain people are allowed much more freedom in what they're able to get away with saying than other groups and people are allowed. It shouldn't be like this, but that is what's happening more and more often these days when most black people have near free reign to say whatever they like no matter how offensive and inflammatory and face little to no reprecussions vs what non-blacks can say publicly without being completely crushed by the public and face severe consequences for their 'offensive and intolerant and racist opinions'.

Well is it that they get away with it or you just don't like their message? Now if their methods are illegal than sure, they should be dealt with as any other group and simply not allowed to break the law. I certainly agree! However, they are certainly entitled to protest and voice their concerns as members of society. In the same way you are able to exercise those freedoms.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

When people say that black people commit alot of crime, violence and murder THAT IS ROOTED IN FACTS AND STATISTICS and decades of it. BUT STILL black people and their supporters REFUSE to acknowledge those facts or else they call the data flawed or biased or racist and make every excuse they can think of to justify why many black people behave the way they do.

Well you say black people but again, if the majority aren't committing crimes than why should they be responsible for the minority who do? Is it there responsibility? Not directly. Their obligation should be the same as the obligation of society as a whole, regardless of skin colour or background. Its a societal problem.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

1. Have black people actually ADMIT to this problem AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT rather than making excuses for the behavior of their people or blaming it on everything and everyone but themselves.

Which black people? Those who commit crimes or those who don't? Those who do I absolutely agree, they should take responsibility. We should also examine why they are committing crimes. What are the underlying factors both individually and sociologically.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

2. Have black people actually co-operate with police CONSISTENTLY so that anytime a crime occurs if someone witnesses it have them contact and tell police immediately so that they can deal with it quickly and more effectively.

I agree, society at large should be cooperative with the police to assist in the investigation of criminal activities. This is an individual and societal responsibility of all member of our society and I agree. Crime impacts us all.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

3. Have black people actually NOT HARBOUR these criminals and instead have the law abiding people turn in these thugs ASAP. Criminals cannot survive in a community that is solidly against them and is 100% committed to ratting them out and getting rid of them from their neighborhoods. Why do you think almost all non-black neighborhoods in the GTA are mostly safe and peaceful? Because the people living there have no issues with reporting criminals and turning them in ASAP to keep their neighborhoods safe compared to black people.

I'd need more evidence about this in general. You are saying that black people have a greater inclination to harbour criminals? Even those who aren't committing crimes? Where is your evidence?

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

4. Have black parents raise their kids properly with morals and human decency and keep them away from the thugs in their communities. Right now black parents are failing their kids by doing a poor job of raising them. As long as that doesn't change then no amount of outside help will ever be enough.

Well I think we've established most do this as the majority of black families are not committing crimes and are thus raising productive members of our society. As for those who do, I agree that there needs to be a personal element of responsibility for one's actions, parents, aunts, uncles, brother, sisters etc. To expand on this we all should work on this. First job for you Max is when you meet a black person for the first time, make sure you treat them with respect and treat them as you would anyone else. Would that be easy for you or would you simply automatically think, probably a criminal and i'm going to stay away. I'm not going to hire this person etc etc. See where i'm getting at - we all have a responsibility in this.

[Max Sterling]

Originally Posted by klmrocks

You must be joking right?
Reading what you continue to write it just seems like you continually are looking for any and every way to justify that "Black" people are worse then everyone else. The more I read what you write I really doubt you actually personally know any people that are black.

You're right, I don't know any black people personally but I do interact with them on a daily basis and I find alot of them to be decent people. And whether I know a black person personally or not, doesn't change the fact that many blacks are violent and criminal at a much, MUCH higher rate than any other group of people in the GTA and it ain't even close. Who was the first murder victim of Toronto in 2017? A black male. Which group of people will again have the largest number of murders in the GTA at the end of the year? Black people.

The point is no one is saying all black people are bad or all black people are criminal, but how hard is it for people like you to understand that there is a significant percentage of blacks that aren't good people and are causing trouble for everyone at a rate that's extremely high relative to their numbers.

You seem to want to put this generic negative label on a group of people ... but there is no logic behind this, except apparently to you. You can manipulate stats... reports or whatever you want to try and prove a point, but the reality is you just don't appear to have any first hand experiences with "black" people or you would probably get that what you are saying is makes no sense.

Please tell what stats are manipulated here?? Is the stat that blacks are involved in about half or more of the murders in the GTA last year a lie? Is the stat that blacks are involved in almost ALL gun related crime and most stabbings all fake? Is the fact that most violent crime involves black people completely made up? So please tell me which stats do you think are false and fake? >_>

I had and have freinds, family members, neighbours, class mates, co-workers etc that are "black". In the last 30 something years of life I have met 1000s and 1000s of black people .... each person, their behaviour, interests, values, upbringing, beliefs are different. I don't even know why anyone should have to explain that because it should be obvious. Why anyone can be delusional enough to think you can label each person that same is insane. Get out of your stats/ reports and get in to the world and meet people.

That's wonderful that you know so many decent and law abiding black people. Great. Awesome. Doesn't change the fact that blacks will still be the most murdered group of people in 2017 just as they have been the past 20-30 years. Doesn't change the fact that they will still be the ones most involved in crime and shootings and stabbings etc. So again I get it. Majority of blacks are decent people, but that doesn't change the fact that too many among them are violent and criminal and it affects everyone. And those same people that you know, ask them if they know of any family or friends that have been in trouble with the law before and see what they say. There's a reason why crime among black families has become a generational problem and why it hasn't gotten better even after all these years.

If you think I'm wrong, just put it this way. Move the entire black population in the GTA out of here and give them their own brand spanking new city and then see what happens. How much do you want to bet that the GTA will now become one of the absolute safest cities in the world while the newly created black city will become the most dangerous city in Canada? The point is the supposed 'tiny minority' of blacks that are violent and criminal isn't so tiny in number after all and that the decent law abiding majority isn't doing enough to get rid of these bad elements in their community which is why an all black city would immediately become the most dangerous place to live in Canada.

[Max Sterling]

Originally Posted by fusion2

I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say about there being no context. I'm talking about perspective and numbers. If the majority of people in the black community are not committing crimes than you can't refer to the minority as 'black people' - that minority is not representative of the majority. Your analogy is particularly meaningless regarding a tumor. If that was the case than over time, particularly in the case of Toronto, the majority of blacks would be committing crimes as the tumor metastasizes - this is not the case because as has been mentioned ad-nauseum and to which you agree, the majority of blacks do not commit or engage in criminal activities.

When year after year, decade after decade its black people being the leader of violence, crime and murder in this city as well as many other places in the world where they've settled in large numbers, how the hell can you say this is not representative of the majority?? Even if the majority aren't committing crime and violence, they SURE AS HELL are giving it a place to grow and breed by not doing enough to get rid of all the bad elements in their communities.

And also you're WRONG about the tumor analogy in that whether it be downtown or in the suburbs or north, south, east or west, please tell me which part of the GTA has NOT been affected by black crime and murder? So yes, black crime HAS SPREAD to everywhere in the city and even where I live in the suburbs of Toronto even though its a very safe area most of the time, even here there has been the occasional shooting or stabbing committed by blacks fairly close to my home.

I definitely think the issue of black crime in Chicago and the U.S in general is worthy of discussion, as I do regarding Toronto. I just don't think this thread is the appropriate venue. We should keep the discussion on the black experience in Toronto and really the thread is about How it is like to be Black in Toronto, not an examination of black criminal activity through the eyes of Max Sterling. Essentially, we as white guys aren't really qualified at all to be commenting on what it is like to be black in Toronto. I've just joined the discussion because I was responding to your posts which I think pretty narrowly focused.

In my first post in this thread it was a response to a couple of inaccurate posts which stated that blacks were small in number here and were treated poorly and also that there was 'severe racism' against blacks in Canada. And also I NEVER tried to comment on what it was like to be black in Toronto or anywhere else. What I DID comment on was that blacks TREAT THEMSELVES FAR WORSE than anyone has ever treated them in the past or present.

Well is it that they get away with it or you just don't like their message? Now if their methods are illegal than sure, they should be dealt with as any other group and simply not allowed to break the law. I certainly agree! However, they are certainly entitled to protest and voice their concerns as members of society. In the same way you are able to exercise those freedoms.

What I'm saying is that freedom of speech isn't being equally applied to everyone like it should be. Two different groups of people can make the exact same statements and yet only one group would be villified and destroyed for making those statements while the other group is given a free pass and doesn't have to face any reprecussions for those same statements. THAT is the problem I have and NOT with what the message is.

An organizer for BLM Toronto said in a tweet 'Plz Allah give me strength to not cuss/kill these men and white folks out here today'. She is still part of BLM today and was also part of the group that made the organizers of the gay pride parade sign their list of demands before allowing the parade to go ahead. Somehow I can't imagine a white person tweeting 'Plz God give me strength to not cuss/kill these men and black folks out here today' not being raked over the coals by the general public as well as our leaders in government for making such a racist and offensive statement. That's the kind of double standard that I hate and shouldn't be allowed to happen and yet it does because everyone is too afraid to criticize blacks for their statements no matter how offensive and wrong they are.

Well you say black people but again, if the majority aren't committing crimes than why should they be responsible for the minority who do? Is it there responsibility? Not directly. Their obligation should be the same as the obligation of society as a whole, regardless of skin colour or background. Its a societal problem.

Except THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE. Did black parents not give birth to these kids who then because they were raised poorly and probably mingled with the wrong crowd grew up to become thugs and criminals themselves? Don't they say 'it takes a village to raise a child' and in the case of black people, their community is pretty damn crappy and screwed up which is why the children they raise so often turn bad. So to say the majority aren't responsible isn't correct when they are at fault for allowing crime and violence in their communities to become a generational problem.

I'd need more evidence about this in general. You are saying that black people have a greater inclination to harbour criminals? Even those who aren't committing crimes? Where is your evidence?

The evidence is all around you backed by DECADES of proof. Look at all the non-black areas of the GTA and tell me which of them have any serious violent crime problems? How about ZERO. Why do you think that is? Partly because non-black parents do a much better job of raising their kids and partly because non-black people actively keep their neighborhoods safe just as they actively keep their neighborhoods looking nice.

Like I said before you can't have a generational crime problem in your communities like black people do unless you allow it to happen and don't do enough to stop it. If like you say the majority are law abiding and decent, then how can the minority bad element still exist unless you allow it to by not turning those criminals in and not ratting them out because they might be your friends or family?

First job for you Max is when you meet a black person for the first time, make sure you treat them with respect and treat them as you would anyone else. Would that be easy for you or would you simply automatically think, probably a criminal and i'm going to stay away. I'm not going to hire this person etc etc. See where i'm getting at - we all have a responsibility in this.

I DO treat black people I meet with respect like I do anyone else and its why I don't have any problems with them. However if I see a ghetto looking black male then I sure as hell will be suspicious of them and be wary around them and not let my guard down for my own personal safety.

[klmrocks]

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

You're right, I don't know any black people personally but I do interact with them on a daily basis and I find alot of them to be decent people. And whether I know a black person personally or not, doesn't change the fact that many blacks are violent and criminal at a much, MUCH higher rate than any other group of people in the GTA and it ain't even close. Who was the first murder victim of Toronto in 2017? A black male. Which group of people will again have the largest number of murders in the GTA at the end of the year? Black people.

The point is no one is saying all black people are bad or all black people are criminal, but how hard is it for people like you to understand that there is a significant percentage of blacks that aren't good people and are causing trouble for everyone at a rate that's extremely high relative to their numbers.

Please tell what stats are manipulated here?? Is the stat that blacks are involved in about half or more of the murders in the GTA last year a lie? Is the stat that blacks are involved in almost ALL gun related crime and most stabbings all fake? Is the fact that most violent crime involves black people completely made up? So please tell me which stats do you think are false and fake? >_>

That's wonderful that you know so many decent and law abiding black people. Great. Awesome. Doesn't change the fact that blacks will still be the most murdered group of people in 2017 just as they have been the past 20-30 years. Doesn't change the fact that they will still be the ones most involved in crime and shootings and stabbings etc. So again I get it. Majority of blacks are decent people, but that doesn't change the fact that too many among them are violent and criminal and it affects everyone. And those same people that you know, ask them if they know of any family or friends that have been in trouble with the law before and see what they say. There's a reason why crime among black families has become a generational problem and why it hasn't gotten better even after all these years.

If you think I'm wrong, just put it this way. Move the entire black population in the GTA out of here and give them their own brand spanking new city and then see what happens. How much do you want to bet that the GTA will now become one of the absolute safest cities in the world while the newly created black city will become the most dangerous city in Canada? The point is the supposed 'tiny minority' of blacks that are violent and criminal isn't so tiny in number after all and that the decent law abiding majority isn't doing enough to get rid of these bad elements in their community which is why an all black city would immediately become the most dangerous place to live in Canada.

I dobt think you get you are reducing people down to one tiny trait out of the millions of traits that makes each person who they uniquely are.

You pick any trait to pin point flaws ... ex related to income, music preferences... favorite food or whatever.

Who are you to group people and suggest how they should focus their priorities? Ex black people need to do so and so to fix problems with certain people that happen to be black?

If all the people in Toronto with long curly dark hair were causing problem ... do you think I would up in arms stressing about it because they look like a liitle like me ... hell no. I got million more things to do.

[UrbanLuis]

Originally Posted by klmrocks

If all the people in Toronto with long curly dark hair were causing problem ... do you think I would up in arms stressing about it because they look like a liitle like me ... hell no. I got million more things to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4AiHmhJGzw

[fusion2]

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

When year after year, decade after decade its black people being the leader of violence, crime and murder in this city as well as many other places in the world where they've settled in large numbers, how the hell can you say this is not representative of the majority?? Even if the majority aren't committing crime and violence, they SURE AS HELL are giving it a place to grow and breed by not doing enough to get rid of all the bad elements in their communities.

So keeping it with Toronto because this is well - the Toronto forum we've already had this back and forth and I think you know my views on this matter. The majority of blacks in this city are good, law abiding and productive citizens. I can't for the life of me understand why they should be responsible for a minority of black citizens involved in crime. What special responsibility should they have exactly. I know tons of black/black families who work hard every damned day - they are providing for their families - what exactly should they do - those majority of black people. You sound ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

And also you're WRONG about the tumor analogy in that whether it be downtown or in the suburbs or north, south, east or west, please tell me which part of the GTA has NOT been affected by black crime and murder? So yes, black crime HAS SPREAD to everywhere in the city and even where I live in the suburbs of Toronto even though its a very safe area most of the time, even here there has been the occasional shooting or stabbing committed by blacks fairly close to my home.

Everything is all relative. I think that comparative stats would show that crime rates here are lower than other places. As for occasional shootings and stabbings - sure we are in a growing city. If Toronto was in the U.S it would be the 3rd largest city and the 4th largest urban agglomeration so yes, unfortunately crime is a problem in any city and in absolute terms sure - a large city is going to have more absolute numbers than others. Interestingly, I don't believe Toronto or its metro is even in relative terms the most criminally inclined city in Canada. I've told you 5 gun shootings a year are too many but for a city our size crime is remarkably low so your tumor is a pimple. Lets treat the pimple but I don't agree with your methods. I haven't been impacted by black crime tbh save for a guy stealing my L.A Kings hat back when I was a kid. For the record I was also assaulted by a white guy and robbed by latinos in this city so..... should I have a personal vengeance against humanity?

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

In my first post in this thread it was a response to a couple of inaccurate posts which stated that blacks were small in number here and were treated poorly and also that there was 'severe racism' against blacks in Canada. And also I NEVER tried to comment on what it was like to be black in Toronto or anywhere else. What I DID comment on was that blacks TREAT THEMSELVES FAR WORSE than anyone has ever treated them in the past or present.

The causes are multi-factorial. Having an intelligent discussion about it is fine. Looking at it with the goal of solving problems is a worthy goal. Being angry at a whole community and marginalizing them isn't a good approach and won't solve any problems. Its just means you are venting... I see the smoke rising from your keyboard.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

What I'm saying is that freedom of speech isn't being equally applied to everyone like it should be. Two different groups of people can make the exact same statements and yet only one group would be villified and destroyed for making those statements while the other group is given a free pass and doesn't have to face any reprecussions for those same statements. THAT is the problem I have and NOT with what the message is.

I haven't had this experience to be honest. Your concerns aren't keeping me up at night at all...

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

An organizer for BLM Toronto said in a tweet 'Plz Allah give me strength to not cuss/kill these men and white folks out here today'. She is still part of BLM today and was also part of the group that made the organizers of the gay pride parade sign their list of demands before allowing the parade to go ahead. Somehow I can't imagine a white person tweeting 'Plz God give me strength to not cuss/kill these men and black folks out here today' not being raked over the coals by the general public as well as our leaders in government for making such a racist and offensive statement. That's the kind of double standard that I hate and shouldn't be allowed to happen and yet it does because everyone is too afraid to criticize blacks for their statements no matter how offensive and wrong they are.

Well regarding your quote by a BLM Toronto member, I think its an irresponsible thing to say. Not about their religious views but about having the strength not to kill people. To me that is a big part of what makes existing problems worse. Instead of having calm, productive and civil conversations things like that persons comments and also your posts make matters far worse. Its the perfect breeding ground to escalate tensions and violence. I wasn't thrilled with BLM tactics at the Gay Pride Parade last year but again, I look at this group as a relative small group and while I don't always agree with what they do or say, i'm not going to wholesale dismiss what they say either. They shouldn't be afforded special privilege either, I don't agree with that at all. That said, I think you should go back to what I said before, be very cautious at linking certain groups with an entire community its very dangerous as Is connecting responsibility to a large group of people for the actions of a few.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

Except THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE. Did black parents not give birth to these kids who then because they were raised poorly and probably mingled with the wrong crowd grew up to become thugs and criminals themselves? Don't they say 'it takes a village to raise a child' and in the case of black people, their community is pretty damn crappy and screwed up which is why the children they raise so often turn bad. So to say the majority aren't responsible isn't correct when they are at fault

I don't have the stats at my finger tips showing how many blacks are committing crimes and are not contributing to our society but I suspect the numbers are extraordinarily low. So somehow expecting the vast majority of blacks to somehow be specially responsible for such a small percentage of people is nonsensical. I think the responsibility rests with society at large and YES we as white folks can do a lot. Smile at a black person, treat them as you would treat anyone else and if they are the most qualified candidate for a job don't turn them away simply because you allow your prejudices to cloud your judgement. It is a societal problem it isn't just a black problem. Fortunately, by ditching the carding practice (that I as a gay man was a victim of) is a good first step. Let's keep it up!

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

The evidence is all around you backed by DECADES of proof. Look at all the non-black areas of the GTA and tell me which of them have any serious violent crime problems? How about ZERO. Why do you think that is? Partly because non-black parents do a much better job of raising their kids and partly because non-black people actively keep their neighborhoods safe just as they actively keep their neighborhoods looking nice.

Ok we've been through this a billion times. Most blacks do not commit crimes and are productive members of society. Get to know some like I have, it'll do ya good. So if most aren't than most of the community is doing a good job. For the minority involved with crime I've already stated that we do have a societal responsibility to do something about it and its multi-pronged. You're being tremendously one-sided.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

Like I said before you can't have a generational crime problem in your communities like black people do unless you allow it to happen and don't do enough to stop it. If like you say the majority are law abiding and decent, then how can the minority bad element still exist unless you allow it to by not turning those criminals in and not ratting them out because they might be your friends or family?

Well what exactly are they supposed to do? Maybe they are too busy being productive members of society distancing themselves from criminal elements. I find it a nonsensical and unsubstantiated notion that the majority in the black community are harbouring criminals I don't think they bear any special responsible above and beyond any of us. We're all in this together Max............

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

I DO treat black people I meet with respect like I do anyone else and its why I don't have any problems with them. However if I see a ghetto looking black male then I sure as hell will be suspicious of them and be wary around them and not let my guard down for my own personal safety.

A ghetto looking black male....Hmm well I know and work with plenty and I can't really say any of them look 'ghetto' - that said, In a work environment one is always responsible for a certain appearance. If I went to work with a Mullet and a Harley Davidson vest on I don't think that would be appropriate attire for my work environment. That said, if I met a white dude with a Mullet and Harley Davidson vest on I would talk to him as I do anyone else.

[fusion2]

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

You're right, I don't know any black people personally but I do interact with them on a daily basis and I find alot of them to be decent people.
.

This says a lot.. Would it be fair to say your interactions are forced? This contrasts with me quite a bit. I grew up with blacks and developed friendships in my community with them that have continued to this day. I've had black lovers and boyfriends. It goes well beyond simple forced interactions and is a reflection of real integration. Going beyond would change you!

[klmrocks]

Originally Posted by UrbanLuis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4AiHmhJGzw

That is mid length hair.... I said long. ..... maybe I should have used a different example

[Max Sterling]

Originally Posted by klmrocks

I dobt think you get you are reducing people down to one tiny trait out of the millions of traits that makes each person who they uniquely are.

Who are you to group people and suggest how they should focus their priorities? Ex black people need to do so and so to fix problems with certain people that happen to be black?

If all the people in Toronto with long curly dark hair were causing problem ... do you think I would up in arms stressing about it because they look like a liitle like me ... hell no. I got million more things to do.

This isn't about traits its about BEHAVIOR. Blacks behaving violently and shooting/stabbing people everywhere in Toronto isn't a trait, its an inability to control their emotions and aggression and to think of the consequences of their actions.

And YES other people NEED to be telling black people where to focus their attention and energy on because its quite apparent that after decades of violence, crime and murder that they are absolutely incapable and/or unwilling to fix things themselves.

Originally Posted by fusion2

So keeping it with Toronto because this is well - the Toronto forum we've already had this back and forth and I think you know my views on this matter. The majority of blacks in this city are good, law abiding and productive citizens. I can't for the life of me understand why they should be responsible for a minority of black citizens involved in crime. What special responsibility should they have exactly. I know tons of black/black families who work hard every damned day - they are providing for their families - what exactly should they do - those majority of black people. You sound ridiculous.

There is NOTHING SPECIAL that decent black people need to do other than to report crime anytime it happens in their neighborhoods REGARDLESS if it involves someone they know or not and also to raise their kids properly and keep them away from bad people in their communities and make sure they learn to be good human beings with morals and respect for their fellow man. Right now too many black kids aren't like this which is why they have absolutely no issue with pulling out guns and knives and injuring and killing people at anywhere at anytime.

Everything is all relative. I think that comparative stats would show that crime rates here are lower than other places. As for occasional shootings and stabbings - sure we are in a growing city. If Toronto was in the U.S it would be the 3rd largest city and the 4th largest urban agglomeration so yes, unfortunately crime is a problem in any city and in absolute terms sure - a large city is going to have more absolute numbers than others. Interestingly, I don't believe Toronto or its metro is even in relative terms the most criminally inclined city in Canada. I've told you 5 gun shootings a year are too many but for a city our size crime is remarkably low so your tumor is a pimple. Lets treat the pimple but I don't agree with your methods. I haven't been impacted by black crime tbh save for a guy stealing my L.A Kings hat back when I was a kid. For the record I was also assaulted by a white guy and robbed by latinos in this city so..... should I have a personal vengeance against humanity?

You're wrong here. Its NOT an occasional occurance when Toronto averaged A SHOOTING EVERYDAY and has averaged at least a shooting every other day in previous years. This doesn't even include stabbings, violent assaults and other violent crimes that happen in the city. And whether you want to hear it or not, blacks are involved in almost all gun related crime and the vast majority of other violent crime here. This is FACT.

And also while the GTA is a growing city, its non-black people that are coming here mostly while the growth of the black population here has been relatively small. This is why despite Toronto's/GTA population growth, crime rates have remained extremely low thanks to the 93% non-black population here. If you look solely at the violent crime rate among black people, its MANY TIMES HIGHER than any other group here and its been that way for DECADES with relatively little change, but thanks to the non-black people here balancing out the very high crime rates of black people, Toronto is a very safe city. I mean imagine if the populations of the GTA were flipped and there were 5.1 million black people and only 400,000 non-black people living here and you know and I know that Toronto would put the likes of Detroit, Chicago and New Orleans to shame and this city would immediately become the most dangerous city of all western nations.

Well regarding your quote by a BLM Toronto member, I think its an irresponsible thing to say. Not about their religious views but about having the strength not to kill people. To me that is a big part of what makes existing problems worse. Instead of having calm, productive and civil conversations things like that persons comments and also your posts make matters far worse. Its the perfect breeding ground to escalate tensions and violence. I wasn't thrilled with BLM tactics at the Gay Pride Parade last year but again, I look at this group as a relative small group and while I don't always agree with what they do or say, i'm not going to wholesale dismiss what they say either. They shouldn't be afforded special privilege either, I don't agree with that at all. That said, I think you should go back to what I said before, be very cautious at linking certain groups with an entire community its very dangerous as Is connecting responsibility to a large group of people for the actions of a few.

Here's the thing. BLM Toronto DO NOT want a calm, orderly and rational discussion, they want to do things that cause a spectacule and grab the attention of the media and our government leaders while accomplishing very little else. When John Tory offered to meet with BLM in private they refused because what good is it to rant and rave and grandstand when there's no one to see it? Its why they insisted on public meetings so they can do precisely that and have an audience to watch their antics.

And while BLM shouldn't be afforded any special priviledges THEY ARE because everyone is too afraid to say or do anything to offend BLM in any way and have them cause even more trouble. By doing so, this has only emboldened them to be even more brazen in their stupid antics because they know no one will hold them accountable if they can do whatever they want under the guise of 'fighting racism and oppression of black people'. I just find it interesting that BLM who claims to be fighting racism is probably the most racist, intolerant and aggressive group in the GTA right now. You can't reason with these people, just agree with them and if you don't you're a racist and a bigot etc.

I don't have the stats at my finger tips showing how many blacks are committing crimes and are not contributing to our society but I suspect the numbers are extraordinarily low. So somehow expecting the vast majority of blacks to somehow be specially responsible for such a small percentage of people is nonsensical. I think the responsibility rests with society at large and YES we as white folks can do a lot. Smile at a black person, treat them as you would treat anyone else and if they are the most qualified candidate for a job don't turn them away simply because you allow your prejudices to cloud your judgement. It is a societal problem it isn't just a black problem. Fortunately, by ditching the carding practice (that I as a gay man was a victim of) is a good first step. Let's keep it up!

I simply don't understand why you REFUSE to look at statistics like per capita and rates and get to know what those terms mean and what they show. If you did you would know that simply saying 'the majority of black people aren't violent or criminal' is COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS and has no context. By using those stats, it actually DOES give meaning and context to the numbers you're looking at and it gives opportunity to compare and contrast. For example if you're using per capita per 100,000 people and you're measuring murders, you can easily make a comparison with how many black people are murdered per 100,000 black people in the GTA vs how many non-black people are murdered per 100,000 non-black people in the GTA.

This means that it doesn't matter that there's only 400,000 black people in the GTA vs 5.1+ million non-blacks in the GTA, you can still compare because you have a common unit to compare with (every 100,000 people). And if you bothered to look at that stat, you could see that despite outnumbering black people more than 12 to 1, the murder rate among black people is many times higher than among non-black people. In other words the millions of non-black people here are many times less violent and murderous than black people are. And THAT'S how you give context to numbers and not some vague argument of 'the majority of blacks aren't violent etc'.

Well what exactly are they supposed to do? Maybe they are too busy being productive members of society distancing themselves from criminal elements. I find it a nonsensical and unsubstantiated notion that the majority in the black community are harbouring criminals I don't think they bear any special responsible above and beyond any of us. We're all in this together Max............

As I said previously its impossible for criminals to exists for so many decades unless they're continually being helped by the communities they exist in. That doesn't mean every black family is harboring and/or not turning in criminals, but there sure as hell enough of them that are doing so. And its impossible for their numbers to be relatively the same or even higher after all these years unless their ranks are continually being replenished to replace all the criminals who have been killed or locked up in jail. And I don't know about you but I don't think I've heard of any other group of people where the victims themselves so often refuse to help police to find and catch the person or people who harmed them the way black people do. So at every turn black people aren't doing nearly enough to help themselves out of the mess they've created for themselves.

Originally Posted by fusion2

This says a lot.. Would it be fair to say your interactions are forced? This contrasts with me quite a bit. I grew up with blacks and developed friendships in my community with them that have continued to this day. I've had black lovers and boyfriends. It goes well beyond simple forced interactions and is a reflection of real integration. Going beyond would change you!

No, my interactions with black people are not 'forced'. I'm quite fine with talking to black people as long as they're civil and seem like decent people, but I do that with most people anyways except for ghetto looking people that look shady and seem like there's a decent chance that they may harm you. I don't think its wrong that if you see someone who's wearing a hoodie and pants down with their asses hanging out and speaking improper english that you shouldn't have your guard up and be suspicious of them.

[fusion2]

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

There is NOTHING SPECIAL that decent black people need to do other than to report crime anytime it happens in their neighborhoods REGARDLESS if it involves someone they know or not and also to raise their kids properly and keep them away from bad people in their communities and make sure they learn to be good human beings with morals and respect for their fellow man. Right now too many black kids aren't like this which is why they have absolutely no issue with pulling out guns and knives and injuring and killing people at anywhere at anytime.

While I don't disagree with you about reporting of crimes, I'm not sure this is the key ingredient in reducing them. There is a cycle and its multifactorial. All said, I've said it before and i'll say it again again, most black kids grow up as well adjusted adults in our city. If they weren't than you'd really have something to write about and you'd really be concerned for your safety. This isn't to brush aside what is happening but just trying to put things into perspective for you. There are very few areas in Toronto where i'm concerned about my safety at any time of the day. The chances of me being caught up in a random act of violence here is minute. Generally, if you are afraid living in Toronto than you are the type afraid of your own shadow.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

You're wrong here. Its NOT an occasional occurance when Toronto averaged A SHOOTING EVERYDAY and has averaged at least a shooting every other day in previous years. This doesn't even include stabbings, violent assaults and other violent crimes that happen in the city. And whether you want to hear it or not, blacks are involved in almost all gun related crime and the vast majority of other violent crime here. This is FACT.

I told you before that even 5 occurrences of gun violence is too many. However, I'll stick to what I said that Toronto isn't particularly violent for its size relative to its peers on our continent. It isn't even the most violent city in our nation in relative terms. I think it would be easy for you to do some basic research that would corroborate what i'm saying. As for which groups are committing those crimes, I don't doubt that there are a disproportionate number committed by black people. That said, of the total number of blacks living in the GTA, the number involved in criminal activity is still minute and that is the elephant in the room that I think you're missing here.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

And also while the GTA is a growing city, its non-black people that are coming here mostly while the growth of the black population here has been relatively small. This is why despite Toronto's/GTA population growth, crime rates have remained extremely low thanks to the 93% non-black population here. If you look solely at the violent crime rate among black people, its MANY TIMES HIGHER than any other group here and its been that way for DECADES with relatively little change, but thanks to the non-black people here balancing out the very high crime rates of black people, Toronto is a very safe city. I mean imagine if the populations of the GTA were flipped and there were 5.1 million black people and only 400,000 non-black people living here and you know and I know that Toronto would put the likes of Detroit, Chicago and New Orleans to shame and this city would immediately become the most dangerous city of all western nations.

Your stats for the GTA are from 2011. I know those are the last official numbers (stats Can takes forever to update) but we are well over 6 million and that is just the GTA and is a rather arbitrary boundary that does not equal other metro's in the U.S. If we were to do that Toronto would anchor a much larger contiguous urbanized area (using their methodology ie MSA/CSA etc). That all said, I'm not going to deny that blacks aren't involved in a disproportionate amount of crime or that it isn't a problem. I think you are not understanding that i'm recognizing this. I'm simply saying that its a sociological/societal issue. There is work do to on all sides to deal with it. I just don't think being one-sided and pointing fingers and being angry about it is part of the solutions package we are looking for.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

Here's the thing. BLM Toronto DO NOT want a calm, orderly and rational discussion, they want to do things that cause a spectacule and grab the attention of the media and our government leaders while accomplishing very little else. When John Tory offered to meet with BLM in private they refused because what good is it to rant and rave and grandstand when there's no one to see it? Its why they insisted on public meetings so they can do precisely that and have an audience to watch their antics.

And while BLM shouldn't be afforded any special priviledges THEY ARE because everyone is too afraid to say or do anything to offend BLM in any way and have them cause even more trouble. By doing so, this has only emboldened them to be even more brazen in their stupid antics because they know no one will hold them accountable if they can do whatever they want under the guise of 'fighting racism and oppression of black people'. I just find it interesting that BLM who claims to be fighting racism is probably the most racist, intolerant and aggressive group in the GTA right now. You can't reason with these people, just agree with them and if you don't you're a racist and a bigot etc.

I think you are inflating the influence and importance of BLM. I've already said I don't agree with all their tactics and I don't even think they are necessarily representative of the black community at large in our city/metro. I don't think they should be afforded any special rights/privileges/treatment but they are allowed to exercise the rights afforded to them by the laws of our land.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

I simply don't understand why you REFUSE to look at statistics like per capita and rates and get to know what those terms mean and what they show. If you did you would know that simply saying 'the majority of black people aren't violent or criminal' is COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS and has no context. By using those stats, it actually DOES give meaning and context to the numbers you're looking at and it gives opportunity to compare and contrast. For example if you're using per capita per 100,000 people and you're measuring murders, you can easily make a comparison with how many black people are murdered per 100,000 black people in the GTA vs how many non-black people are murdered per 100,000 non-black people in the GTA.

This means that it doesn't matter that there's only 400,000 black people in the GTA vs 5.1+ million non-blacks in the GTA, you can still compare because you have a common unit to compare with (every 100,000 people). And if you bothered to look at that stat, you could see that despite outnumbering black people more than 12 to 1, the murder rate among black people is many times higher than among non-black people. In other words the millions of non-black people here are many times less violent and murderous than black people are. And THAT'S how you give context to numbers and not some vague argument of 'the majority of blacks aren't violent etc'.

I'm more than aware of per capita stats. I've already said and agreed that blacks commit a disproportionate amount of the crime that goes on. Clearly that means I understand what Is going on and i'm not making excuses for anyone. At the same time, you can't ignore absolute numbers as well. They HAVE to be used to paint an accurate picture. The problem is when you ignore that most Blacks aren't violent criminals and don't harbour criminals its harder for a person to disassociate the fact that most of the community does not have a problem. It might be better for you to refer to the criminal elements of the black community as opposed to the 'black community' because it is clear and you have agreed most members are not involved in crime. That is why I said, your tumor is not as nefarious as you are making it out. If that were the case as I said, you'd really have something to write about!

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

As I said previously its impossible for criminals to exists for so many decades unless they're continually being helped by the communities they exist in. That doesn't mean every black family is harboring and/or not turning in criminals, but there sure as hell enough of them that are doing so. And its impossible for their numbers to be relatively the same or even higher after all these years unless their ranks are continually being replenished to replace all the criminals who have been killed or locked up in jail. And I don't know about you but I don't think I've heard of any other group of people where the victims themselves so often refuse to help police to find and catch the person or people who harmed them the way black people do. So at every turn black people aren't doing nearly enough to help themselves out of the mess they've created for themselves.

I need to read and research more on this. I'm not summarily dismissing what you are saying but I would need to read more research studies on it. No offense.

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

No, my interactions with black people are not 'forced'. I'm quite fine with talking to black people as long as they're civil and seem like decent people, but I do that with most people anyways except for ghetto looking people that look shady and seem like there's a decent chance that they may harm you. I don't think its wrong that if you see someone who's wearing a hoodie and pants down with their asses hanging out and speaking improper english that you shouldn't have your guard up and be suspicious of them.

Well if you don't have long term friends or haven't had any relationships with a black person than the interactions seem to be more 'forced' If you will. This is where we are different. I grew up in a community with a large black population (Jane/Finch) so I grew up with many from a variety of Caribbean countries. The vast majority good people! I also don't judge how one dresses either, you'd be surprised! Judging less based on superficialities and book covers however is definitely a part of the sociological solutions package that we need!