Ontario Government introduces sweeping new measures to curb record high rents and home prices

[botticelli]

Originally Posted by fusion2

The problem is nobody Is enough affordable housing Botti.... There is more than enough development going on for those who can largely afford it. My concern is regarding the working families who are really struggling.

How affordable is affordable, fusion? For example, what do you think is the reasonable rent for a 900 sf two bedroom apartment not too far from the city centre?

I don't think Toronto is too unaffordable, and like any large cities, the rent won't be too cheap and there will always people who can't afford the houses they want. Large cities attract both the richest and poorest, which is the reason why many can't afford decent places, and that will never change (unless we shift to a Singapore style housing policy).

Rent control IMO is counter-productive to solving high rent problem. If there is a lot of development in Toronto (it is true) and the rent is still rising fast (also true), that only means ONE thing: there is still not enough development to meet the rising demand. To put a cap to the price landlord can charge, I am afraid is a very short sighted solution because that discourages investment in housing.

On a side note, maybe AirBnB plays a role in reducing long term rental supply.

[fusion2]

Originally Posted by botticelli

How affordable is affordable, fusion? For example, what do you think is the reasonable rent for a 900 sf two bedroom apartment not too far from the city centre?

I don't think Toronto is too unaffordable, and like any large cities, the rent won't be too cheap and there will always people who can't afford the houses they want. Large cities attract both the richest and poorest, which is the reason why many can't afford decent places, and that will never change (unless we shift to a Singapore style housing policy).

Rent control IMO is counter-productive to solving high rent problem. If there is a lot of development in Toronto (it is true) and the rent is still rising fast (also true), that only means ONE thing: there is still not enough development to meet the rising demand. To put a cap to the price landlord can charge, I am afraid is a very short sighted solution because that discourages investment in housing.

On a side note, maybe AirBnB plays a role in reducing long term rental supply.

The problem is Botti is that there is not enough supply of affordable housing to the working class families in the city. I know Toronto Is a growing and wealthy city but there certainly are a lot of people struggling and being left behind. They are struggling between paying rent and all the other necessary living expenses. To have blind faith that the market will provide fairness is a stretch. Ideally you are right in that there would be enough supply for these people but the truth is there isn't.

Developers aren't building enough affordable housing because they can make more money catering to the more well off and this is where a lot of people are left behind. I just feel as though working class people are an important part of this city and left to natural forces they will be pushed out or forced to live and than commute unreasonable distances to their jobs. I don't have all the solutions Botti but I do think as a society we need to advocate for those who aren't making 80 or 100K per year. For me and my partner its easy to afford our rent - we purposefully live in a decently priced apartment because we like to invest and travel but there are a lot of people who would struggle to pay the 1300 bucks per month for a two bedroom apartment plus pay all the other living expenses necessary to live.

I don't want to see the city gentrified to the gils is what i'm saying.. We need to do more for everyone! So no, rent control certainly isn't the perfect or only solution but as I said, if it helps to at least control the rising cost of living so that they aren't forced to even cut back more on their grocery shopping or other essentials just to scrape by than i'm sorry - I have to support its notion until we actually do have the supply necessary to house these people because when it comes to affordable housing in this growing city, that is one area where not enough is being done.

[botticelli]

Originally Posted by fusion2

The problem is Botti is that there is not enough supply of affordable housing to the working class families in the city. I know Toronto Is a growing and wealthy city but there certainly are a lot of people struggling and being left behind. They are struggling between paying rent and all the other necessary living expenses. To have blind faith that the market will provide fairness is a stretch. Ideally you are right in that there would be enough supply for these people but the truth is there isn't.

Developers aren't building enough affordable housing because they can make more money catering to the more well off and this is where a lot of people are left behind. I just feel as though working class people are an important part of this city and left to natural forces they will be pushed out or forced to live and than commute unreasonable distances to their jobs. I don't have all the solutions Botti but I do think as a society we need to advocate for those who aren't making 80 or 100K per year. For me and my partner its easy to afford our rent - we purposefully live in a decently priced apartment because we like to invest and travel but there are a lot of people who would struggle to pay the 1300 bucks per month for a two bedroom apartment plus pay all the other living expenses necessary to live.

I don't want to see the city gentrified to the gils is what i'm saying.. We need to do more for everyone! So no, rent control certainly isn't the perfect or only solution but as I said, if it helps to at least control the rising cost of living so that they aren't forced to even cut back more on their grocery shopping or other essentials just to scrape by than i'm sorry - I have to support its notion until we actually do have the supply necessary to house these people because when it comes to affordable housing in this growing city, that is one area where not enough is being done.

I think we are talking about different things based on different assumption.

I don't expect developers to build "affordable housing". It is unreasonable to, because developers are right in pursuing profit as long as they obey all laws and regulations. You are essentially indicating developers should be selfless and give up some potential profit so that poor families can afford to live in the properties they build - that's fairy tale. That won't happen and it is not called greedy.

We all say corporations are greedy and only want profit. really? Imagine you are selling your house, a rich guy is offering 500,000$, and a struggling family of four is offering $490,000, which offer would you take? We take the highest offer and shouldn't be called heartless for doing so. If we are not that noble, why blame "developers"?

I don't deny families are struggling and it is a problem. However, to think developers' greed is one of the reason is wrong. Developers can't charge whatever price/rent they want, because they are fragmented and supply will always bring price down if it is high enough. The fact housing is unaffordable is not because developers are not building enough affordable housing, but because developers are not building enough housing. Then if you resort to put to cap on their return, they will build even fewer and shortage will only worsen.

Unaffordable rent is always due to insufficient supply (this is why HK is super expensive), not some imaginary "corporate greed" which only caters to the super rich. What the government should do is to encourage higher supply (either more land or higher density), or provide tax incentives for developers to think it is PROFITABLE for them to include many affordable housing.

You don't have the solution? I do. Relax our zone laws and allow developers to build a lot of apartments in many of Toronto's traditional low density neighbourhoods. It is actually very easy to do, yet our politicians are scared of the rich nimbys, that's the problem. Why are Vancouver and San Francisco expensive? It is essentially the same reason. (being geographically limited by oceans and mountains are a stupid excuse often used).

I think you always forget the fact that supply responds to artificially low prices. And you blame developers for pursuing profit - something not just all companies, but each of us does all the time without any guilt.

[bostonkid123]

Originally Posted by botticelli

Unaffordable rent is always due to insufficient supply (this is why HK is super expensive), not some imaginary "corporate greed" which only caters to the super rich. What the government should do is to encourage higher supply (either more land or higher density), or provide tax incentives for developers to think it is PROFITABLE for them to include many affordable housing.

You don't have the solution? I do. Relax our zone laws and allow developers to build a lot of apartments in many of Toronto's traditional low density neighbourhoods. It is actually very easy to do, yet our politicians are scared of the rich nimbys, that's the problem. Why are Vancouver and San Francisco expensive? It is essentially the same reason. (being geographically limited by oceans and mountains are a stupid excuse often used).

I think you always forget the fact that supply responds to artificially low prices. And you blame developers for pursuing profit - something not just all companies, but each of us does all the time without any guilt.

If only reality is that simple and can easily solved by balancing "supply and demand".

First, the Ontario government already provides tax credit and development rebates to developers who provide affordable housing and other community amenities - parks, libraries, public spaces - as part of existings laws. The new Fair Housing legislations also clearly lay out financial incentives in the following statues:

1. $125 million CAD over 5 years of available development rebates to developers who construct mid to high density purpose-built rental apartments

2. Creation of an independent Housing Supply Team to specifically work with private developers to identify areas where there is a housing shortage as well as streamlining projects to inject further supply into the market.

Second, Botti - if you actually cared to read my OP and associated news coverages on this topic, you would not be providing your "solutions" because many are already part of existing legislations and upcoming new legislations - you just weren't aware of them because you haven't paid enough attention to what's happening in GTA these days. I'm re-posting the specific answers to points, again, for the third time on this thread, just FYI. 2017 Ontario Fair Housing Bills - Tackling Foreign Speculation, Housing Supplies, and Increased Rental Developments

Thirdly, relax zoning regulations? I believe they are already quite relaxed as it is. Let's all be honest here - GTA is probably one of the most, if not the most, development-friendly cities in the western-hemisphere. At last count, there are currently 198 mid to high rise projects occurring at the moment as we speak, just within the city of Toronto. Mississauga itself has its own development boom at the moment, which has just announced a massive redevelopment of its waterfront with mid-rise apartments, offices, and access to the Hurontario LRT and RER. Booming Transit-Oriented Neighbourhood Planned for Mississauga WaterfrontJust today, when I was out for a workout, I noticed 2 new development signs going on my street, one for a 34 storey mixed use office, and another for a 38 storey all-rental apartment.

Try proposing a Toronto-like building boom in SF, or Paris, or Boston - and then tell me what NIMBY-sim really means.

[fusion2]

^^^

All sounds good BK - hopefully these measures will ensure that people don't get left behind. We'll see but I agree - all good stuff!