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My husband and I moved to Silicon Valley from Seattle with our two children a few years ago, and we're thinking about moving again due to the insane housing costs/COL and a number of other reasons. We've been researching a number of places and are very interested in learning more about Toronto and whether we could have the life we want there.
What we're looking for:
- Safety
- Good place to raise a family - good schools
- Walkable city or town close to city with lots of amenities and fun things to do (good restaurants, shops, farmers markets, art galleries, museums, etc.)
- Affordability
We've learned that housing costs are staring to come down in Toronto, but we're not sure how they really compare to the Bay Area. To get a home (2-3 bedroom/2 bath) in the neighborhood we want to live in here (Los Gatos), you're looking at 1.8-2 million USD. What is the price range for a decent 2-3 bedroom in Toronto (single family preferred but we're ok with condo/flat/townhome) in a good condition and in a good neighborhood with good schools? I guess I should mention that the 1.8-2 million here will get you a broken down old fixer upper. We're not interested in spending anywhere near that and definitely not for a piece of &*$%. 600K-900K is the range we want to target. What are some neighborhoods in the city or within a good commuting distance we should look into? Any websites like Redfin or Zillow that have info on the Toronto housing market?
Does anyone have information on salary for Senior Software Engineer with over 10 years of experience working at FANG/top tech companies? We see the Glassdoor salaries for Toronto but would like information on whether Toronto would give us any bang for our buck. The salaries are higher in San Francisco/San Jose, but does the COL difference between Bay Area and Toronto leave more disposable income in Toronto?
Any additional advice from Americans that have relocated to Toronto would be greatly appreciated. My husband and I are both born and raised in the US, so we're not looking for an easier route to citizenship like many that have decided on Canada over US. We're just looking for a better life.
www.realtor.ca is your number 1 source for all things real estate related in Canada/Toronto. It's a compilation of all listings currently on the market.
It all depends on where in the city you want to live. 600-900k will not get you a single family home in Toronto, especially not in the neighborhoods that fit your criteria (e.g. close to transit, access to urban amenities, in the vicinity of city center). Most likely, it'll get you a mid-sized townhouse slightly outside downtown area, or more likely, a large 2-3 bedroom new condo or two-storey condo loft in the more desirable parts of town with subway access. As a rule of thumb, anywhere close to a streetcar/subway line will be expensive. Toronto is also a city where you are fully able to live without a car, as long as you live near areas with good transit access. Most likely you are looking at downsizing to a townhouse, condo, or at most a semi-detached house, as single family homes are extremely rare nowadays in the city of Toronto (the city has banned all new construction of single family houses, hence the explosion of townhomes, rowhouses, condos, etc.)
Salary will be lower than SF Bay Area. Income and sales taxes will be higher (13% on all purchases). But healthcare access is also free, and prescription pharmaceuticals are also free for all kids under 25 (applicable in Ontario). And of course, elementary and high schools are free of charge, as well as subsidized tuition for universities (U of Toronto, one of Canada's top ranked institutions, averages about $4000-$6000 CAD / year for undergraduate tuition, not counting various subsidies, scholarships, tuition assist programs). A single parent making less than $60,000 CAD per year is also eligible for free university tuition for their children.
www.realtor.ca is your number 1 source for all things real estate related in Canada/Toronto. It's a compilation of all listings currently on the market.
It all depends on where in the city you want to live. 600-900k will not get you a single family home in Toronto, especially not in the neighborhoods that fit your criteria (e.g. close to transit, access to urban amenities, in the vicinity of city center). Most likely, it'll get you a mid-sized townhouse slightly outside downtown area, or more likely, a large 2-3 bedroom new condo or two-storey condo loft in the more desirable parts of town with subway access. As a rule of thumb, anywhere close to a streetcar/subway line will be expensive. Toronto is also a city where you are fully able to live without a car, as long as you live near areas with good transit access. Most likely you are looking at downsizing to a townhouse, condo, or at most a semi-detached house, as single family homes are extremely rare nowadays in the city of Toronto (the city has banned all new construction of single family houses, hence the explosion of townhomes, rowhouses, condos, etc.)
Salary will be lower than SF Bay Area. Income and sales taxes will be higher (13% on all purchases). But healthcare access is also free, and prescription pharmaceuticals are also free for all kids under 25 (applicable in Ontario). And of course, elementary and high schools are free of charge, as well as subsidized tuition for universities (U of Toronto, one of Canada's top ranked institutions, averages about $4000-$6000 CAD / year for undergraduate tuition, not counting various subsidies, scholarships, tuition assist programs). A single parent making less than $60,000 CAD per year is also eligible for free university tuition for their children.
Regarding the the single family home. I think you can pull off this house budget in South Scarborough.... but it is going to be tight and you will get most of what you are asking for ( plus an actually beach in walking distance). There are areas of the city that are really transitioning now and this is one of them. But even in this area you need to move really FAST to get something within that price point because homes sell fast and there are often bidding wars. You also need an experiences and aggressive agent who is going to help you find out about places before they are even listed.
In the US the salary will be higher and prices lower.
With that difference in mind, isn't it affordable to rent in a safe neighborhood? Or moving to a safer state in the US
Also property prices in Toronto are only affordable by millionaires...
To add another hassle you will have to go through the immigration process,an arduous task with no guarantees of success. start here =Immigration and citizenship
If you do eventually get landed immigrant status i think you will like Toronto but you wont find the overall costs cheaper than where you are now..
In the US the salary will be higher and prices lower.
With that difference in mind, isn't it affordable to rent in a safe neighborhood? Or moving to a safer state in the US
Also property prices in Toronto are only affordable by millionaires...
Exactly, as a software engineer there are a lot more opportunities in the US, why not just move to some places there that cost less and safer ? Portland Oregon would get you much better bang for your bucks than Toronto , and you won’t need to go through the year-long (or longer ) immigration process to find out whether you can move here or not
Exactly, as a software engineer there are a lot more opportunities in the US, why not just move to some places there that cost less and safer ? Portland Oregon would get you much better bang for your bucks than Toronto , and you won’t need to go through the year-long (or longer ) immigration process to find out whether you can move here or not
Average processing time for a Canadian work permit is 2 to 8 weeks, max, provided that you have a valid job offer from a Canadian employer (not that hard to get if you are in tech as programmers are in extremely high demand these days, especially in Toronto, Kitchener/Waterloo, and Montreal - I'm with a tech consulting firm and receive almost daily Linkedin messages from Toronto-based tech recruiters).
Average processing time for a Canadian work permit is 2 to 8 weeks, max, provided that you have a valid job offer from a Canadian employer (not that hard to get if you are in tech as programmers are in extremely high demand these days, especially in Toronto, Kitchener/Waterloo, and Montreal - I'm with a tech consulting firm and receive almost daily Linkedin messages from Toronto-based tech recruiters).
I was referring to PR application, since that’s the OP would be going for if they want to settle here, work permit won’t get them some of the benefits they need, especially there is a 15% foreign buyer tax if they want to buy house here, not to mention higher down payment requirement .. but since you mentioned work permit, here is what’s from the CIC website if applying from the US
Work permit
United States of America
12 week(s)
Excludes: Post-grad and Co-op work permits, and refugees applying for their first work permit; instead, select “Work permit extensions (New employer)”
Does not include transit time between the VAC and IRCC office.
And what kind of employer would be desperate enough to wait for someone for 12 weeks to start while there are plenty of software people to choose from (many of them even move south since they couldn’t get jobs here)?
Don’t know where you got your stats from and how that was ‘easy’ to get - but ever since the 2013 RBC scandal work permit has been extremely difficult to get , the employer would need to file for labour market impact assessment before applying for work permit - which proves there is a need for a foreign worker and they can’t find a local Canadian for it , no way that process can be done in less than a month before you can apply for work permit
Last edited by moveagain; 09-29-2017 at 09:24 AM..
I was referring to PR application, since that’s the OP would be going for if they want to settle here, work permit won’t get them some of the benefits they need, especially there is a 15% foreign buyer tax if they want to buy house here, not to mention higher down payment requirement .. but since you mentioned work permit, here is what’s from the CIC website if applying from the US
Work permit
United States of America
12 week(s)
Excludes: Post-grad and Co-op work permits, and refugees applying for their first work permit; instead, select “Work permit extensions (New employer)”
Does not include transit time between the VAC and IRCC office.
And what kind of employer would be desperate enough to wait for someone for 12 weeks to start while there are plenty of software people to choose from (many of them even move south since they couldn’t get jobs here)?
Don’t know where you got your stats from and how that was ‘easy’ to get - but ever since the 2013 RBC scandal work permit has been extremely difficult to get , the employer would need to file for labour market impact assessment before applying for work permit - which proves there is a need for a foreign worker and they can’t find a local Canadian for it , no way that process can be done in less than a month before you can apply for work permit
My management and tech consulting firm based in Toronto hires over 30% of our employees via work permits. Average processing time has never been over 8 weeks because we partner with a downtown immigration law firm that have processed these cases thousands of times. It's a very very standard procedure, and we are more than willing to wait for the permit to go through as long as we get the right talent. In fact, work permit doesn't even come into the conversation until we are ready to extend an offer to someone - because like most tech and professional services firms, we place talent first, and are willing to devote resources to support that talent (immigration services, legal representation, relocation assistance, family member assistance).
Currently we have over 500 openings in our Toronto office, 60% of which are tech related jobs. It's certainly not an understatement when we say that there is a talent shortage.
In terms of providing a labour market impact assessment - it is a very standard procedure handled by our immigration law firm. Everything is done in advance, we don't wait until the last minute when we are ready to hire someone to complete the assessment and associated paperwork.
Lastly, the 15% foreign buyers real estate tax only applies to non-resident aliens who do no reside in Ontario and do not hold full-time jobs in Ontario. Those who are on work permit are considered residents, and are eligible to purchase after 1 year of residency in Ontario without paying the 15% tax. I have yet to encounter any colleague on work permit who has trouble buying a condo in Toronto because of the 15% tax. https://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/bulletins/nrst/nrst.html
Those on temporary work permits are also eligible for OHIP universal health coverage as long as they are physically present in Ontario 153 days out of a 12-month period and possess full time employment. All of my foreign colleagues hold the same OHIP card as I do. http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/publi...p_foreign.aspx
All in all, getting work permit, sponsorship, and healthcare coverage in Canada is relatively simple - as long as you have a valid full time job offer. Compare the above with what people have to go through to get a U.S. H1B work permit (minimum 1 year processing time, random lottery selection with 50-70% chance of rejection).
My management and tech consulting firm based in Toronto hires over 30% of our employees via work permits. Average processing time has never been over 8 weeks because we partner with a downtown immigration law firm that have processed these cases thousands of times. It's a very very standard procedure, and we are more than willing to wait for the permit to go through as long as we get the right talent. In fact, work permit doesn't even come into the conversation until we are ready to extend an offer to someone - because like most tech and professional services firms, we place talent first, and are willing to devote resources to support that talent (immigration services, legal representation, relocation assistance, family member assistance).
Currently we have over 500 openings in our Toronto office, 60% of which are tech related jobs. It's certainly not an understatement when we say that there is a talent shortage.
In terms of providing a labour market impact assessment - it is a very standard procedure handled by our immigration law firm. Everything is done in advance, we don't wait until the last minute when we are ready to hire someone to complete the assessment and associated paperwork.
Lastly, the 15% foreign buyers real estate tax only applies to non-resident aliens who do no reside in Ontario and do not hold full-time jobs in Ontario. Those who are on work permit are considered residents, and are eligible to purchase after 1 year of residency in Ontario without paying the 15% tax. I have yet to encounter any colleague on work permit who has trouble buying a condo in Toronto because of the 15% tax. https://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/bulletins/nrst/nrst.html
All in all, getting work permit, sponsorship, and healthcare coverage in Canada is relatively simple - as long as you have a valid full time job offer. Compare the above with what people have to go through to get a U.S. H1B work permit (minimum 1 year processing time, random lottery selection with 50-70% chance of rejection).
Thank you! The last thing we're worried about is the immigration process for the reasons you outlined above. It would be helpful if someone had more info on salaries, disposable income, etc. While the pay here in the Bay Area is very high, so is the cost of living. There is a housing crisis. High paid engineers are living in their vans or sharing an apartment with 5 people. Rent for a two bedroom is $4,000-$5,000. It's so not worth it. We need to get out of here. When living in Seattle, even though our pay was lower, so was the cost of living, which made life seem so much easier. Unfortunately, we couldn't stand the dreary, dark weather. Also, it was a bit boring. Hence, why we will not be moving to a place like Portland. We're ok with snow and cold, just not the cloudy grey skies you get for 9 months in Seattle.
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